D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

I'm A Banana said:

That's a fine ruling, but in the rules, the player doesn't declare their action until their turn. There's no "declare an action" step in the RAW before Surprise is determined by the DM. There's no "trigger" for surprise that must happen regardless of the initiative roll.

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That's because there are no 'Actions In Combat'...outside of Combat Rounds and Initiative order.

By definition, before the first round of combat, you are not in combat! You don't 'declare Actions' at all, because 'Actions' is short for 'Actions In Combat' and they are not required, nor do they exist, outside combat rounds.

So, how does anything get done outside of combat rounds?

Well, you just tell the DM what you are doing!

You can tell the DM that your PC is opening a door, casting a spell, running as fast as he can, anything that the PC is able to do. No 'declarations', no 'Actions In Combat', you just tell the DM what you're doing and the DM adjudicates it.

So how do we switch from this 'narrative time' to 'combat rounds/initiative' where Actions In Combat are required in order to do stuff?

Simples! When you say you are doing something that the DM rules counts as combat (or when his NPCs do), he then uses the rules to adjudicate what you are doing.

If what you are doing is lying in wait to shoot the goblin and hope to use your Assassinate class ability, then you don't tell the DM when combat rounds start or when they don't start! You just tell the DM that you are shooting the goblin from hiding (you rolled Stealth checks because the DM told you to because out of combat you said you were hiding).

You have already shot the arrow! You said you were doing this. If you hadn't have said you were shooting the goblin, the DM would not have moved from narrative time to combat rounds.

You can say, "My PC is thinking about shooting the goblin". Think away! Combat hasn't started yet.

"My PC nocks an arrow and draws his bow, aiming at the goblin". Aim away! Combat hasn't started yet.

"My PC shoots the goblin". Roll initiative. We are now in combat.

Remember, the initiative roll does not represent Stealth. The fact that the goblin rolls a higher initiative does not mean that his Perception beat your Stealth; it just means that his reactions are faster than yours this time!

You shoot the arrow. Initiative is rolled.

If you roll higher, then the creature is still 'surprised' at that moment. Your class ability means that you have advantage on the attack roll and, if it hits, it is a critical hit. Good for you! All those resources spent on getting high initiative and advantage on initiative checks to aid in your assassinations has not gone to waste.

If the goblin rolls higher, then unbeknownst to you his reactions are faster than yours this combat. He still doesn't see you though. His turn comes first, but because he is surprised then he cannot move or take any Actions. So, from your POV, nothing has happened! Your PC cannot tell the difference between having a higher initiative or a lower initiative than the goblin just by looking! The player might have an idea, having seen his own initiative total, but remember that at this point the arrow has already been shot, just not resolved yet. The goblin may take a reaction if he has one that helps, but he can only react to things he can see. He cannot see you, but he can see the arrow in enough time to cast shield just in time, or use Uncanny Dodge to roll with the punch, so to speak. Because his reactions were just that fast this time!

Oh, well, you can't win them all!

This is how the RAW is written in terms of the relationship between out of combat/in combat and stealth/reaction time. This is why 5E doesn't not have 'surprise rounds'; it doesn't need them.

@FarBeyondC

1st answer- That seems to be the most sensible option. However, let's say that the character who attacked first (the one who started the combat) rolls very poor initiative and, by the time he gets to act, the target he previously declared is already dead, killed by the other party members. Would you allow a change of target, or is the attack "locked" regardless?

2nd answer- Yes, I too usually roll initiative in the open. So i guess assassinate relies quite a bit on the DM's preference on this matter.

Flamestrike said:

There were no turns when the player declared his action. You're in narrative time.

If he declares he is doing X, and then dice are rolled to resolve that action, its happening. Im not sure that needs a rule.

If during a social encounter, a player says 'I'll hurl my sword at the King looking to impale him on his throne!' (after the shocked silence at the table) you say 'Ummm OK' roll initiative.

Lets see if the guards (or other players, or the king) can react in time to thwart this madman as he goes for his sword with murder in his eyes.

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Taken that RAW surprise happen when you're hidden, in this case there would be no suprise possible. DM decide to that it goes from a social encounter to a combat encounter and call for initiative. The order will then dictate who takes turn first. If you are, you may throw that sword but otherwise you shouldn't. That's how most combat encounter start when creature that can notice each other go into a fight!

What you're advocating for the hidden assassin is an ambush, which is not described in the rules, like it was in AD&D 2nd edition. These rules were letting the ambusher attack twice before the surprised creature could. In 5E you take turns and attack within combat, which runs in initiative turn. You can decide to let attack occur out of combat, but it's not how surprise and combat rules actually work as written.

Such ambush could result in a creature attacking 3 times before the other can if it win initiative. Taken that 5E combat usually don't last that long in terms of rounds letting a creature possibly attack 3 times before one can retaliate is very powerful.

This thread was very interesting until it became yet-another-stealth-assassin thread.

By RAW, you are surprised at the start of combat if you don't detect a threat.

Whether you are aware of the creature or not.

Although, in a traditional dungeon bash or wilderness exploration, you usually 'detect a threat' when you first detect the creature itself, this doesn't have to be the case.

For example, you could be in high-level government-type diplomatic negotiations; you can detect all the creatures, but that doesn't mean you automatically detect the threat of the guy suddenly drawing his dagger and stabbing you with it!

The RAW is that DMs determine surprise. He can determine surprise any way he damn well pleases!

He can just say, "those guys are surprised, those guys are not!"

Usually, he will ask for opposed skill checks.

Usually those skills will be Perception versus Stealth, because usually as soon as you detect the creature you detect the threat because you have reason to believe that the troll you see wishes to kill everything it sees.

But 'Stealth versus Perception' is not the rule; 'the DM decides who is surprised' is the rule.

So, in the situation where you know the creature is there but you don't realise that it is a threat, the DM can ask for opposed Deception versus Insight checks, to represent being able to interpret the attacker's body language correctly and that he is going to attack.

This is the check I would use to adjudicate a gunslinger fast draw showdown. You can see the baddy easily enough, but if you draw first and kill him then it's murder, while if he draws first and you kill him then it's self-defence. So you are reading his body language and when you read that he is going for his gun then you go for yours and try and be faster.

In game terms, the baddy 'declared' that he was drawing and shooting (we are not in combat yet). As soon as he does, initiative is rolled and surprise determined.

The baddy draws first, but does he get to shoot first? That's why we have game mechanics, to find out!

The baddy is not surprised because he knows he is attacking(!). He makes a Deception check, which represents him trying to disguise the fact that he's 'going for his gun'. You make an Insight check, which represents the fact that you are trying to determine this very thing!

If you win, you can act normally. He may still be faster on the draw than you; that's what initiative rolls are for!

Of course, if you don't care about being called a murderer or there are no witnesses, and you are happy to gun him down, you can say that you are drawing and shooting him and he can say that he is drawing and shooting you. Roll initiative! No-one is surprised, no-one is worried about body language, you are just trying to kill each other. Who draws first is all about reaction time not trying to ascertain his intentions. It's a straight initiative check.

If you are surprised, you cannot use a reaction until the first turn of combat ends. So yes, the murder victim has a spot in the initiative, but no they are not alerted, no they can't move or act, and no they can't react. They are just surprised. Right there on p. 189.

The Assassinate ability inherent grants advantage on targets that have not taken a turn, which activates the sneak attack (p. 97). Surprised characters do not take a turn, despite having a spot in the initiative ladder. Therefore the assassinate ability works on them.

Thus in the hypothetical situation, the assassin still gets their first round sucker-punch in, regardless of who has the higher initiative.

The rules are very clear.

-The Gneech

EDIT: Yeah, okay, not so clear, thanks to "turn" vs. "round". See addendum below.

The_Gneech said:

If you are surprised, you cannot use a reaction until the first turn of combat ends.So yes, the murder victim has a spot in the initiative, but no they are not alerted, no they can't move or act, and no they can't react. They are just surprised. Right there on p. 189.

The Assassinate ability inherent grants advantage on targets that have not taken a turn, which activates the sneak attack (p. 97). Surprised characters do not take a turn, despite having a spot in the initiative ladder. Therefore the assassinate ability works on them.

Thus in the hypothetical situation, the assassin still gets their first round sucker-punch in, regardless of who has the higher initiative.

The rules are very clear.

-The Gneech

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Yes, they are very clear. And not at all what you have posted.

Here is the quote from pg. 189 - "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."

You get a turn, you just can't take an action or move during it.

You also seem to be confusing the terms round and turn.

Again quoting from pg. 189 - "A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn."

I almost think we should just copy the entire page into a thread and sticky it.

The_Gneech said:

If you are surprised, you cannot use a reaction until the first turn of combat ends. So yes, the murder victim has a spot in the initiative, but no they are not alerted, no they can't move or act, and no they can't react. They are just surprised. Right there on p. 189.

The Assassinate ability inherent grants advantage on targets that have not taken a turn, which activates the sneak attack (p. 97). Surprised characters do not take a turn, despite having a spot in the initiative ladder. Therefore the assassinate ability works on them.

Thus in the hypothetical situation, the assassin still gets their first round sucker-punch in, regardless of who has the higher initiative.

The rules are very clear.

-The Gneech

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Not quite true. Once their turn in the initiative order ends, they then are no longer surprised and can take reactions. So if they do win initiative, they aren't surprised. But I'm AFB ATM.

I think the point is, if you're an assassin, you better have the Alert feat to guarantee you win initiative.

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Yeah surprised creatures still take turns so Assassinate is not guaranteed it depen on initiative.

Fair cop, it does say turn and not round, you're right. So yes, they can take reactions if they have reactions to take.

So then it boils down to an interpretation of whether "taking an action on their turn" is the same as "taking a turn," which is too damn fuzzy.

It seems to me RAI that the assassin should get their ability, but I agree the wording is vague. The auto-crit is still there in any case; it's just the advantage (and sneak attack that goes with it) that's in dispute. If the assassin strikes from hiding, they'll still have advantage anyway.

-The Gneech