D&D 5E Warlock One of the More Complicated 5E classes?

Tony Vargas said:

Would 'needlessly complicated' rather than 'complex' make a difference?

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Sure - needlessly more-or-less entails serving no useful or desired purpose.

I don't know whether the warlock is needlessly complex. But clearly some of its complexity is the result of mechanical rather than thematic considerations. For instance, the 1x/day invocations are the result of trying to integrate a 1x/short rest spell mechanic with a spell list that is balanced mostly around 1x/day slot availability.

ChrisCarlson said:

I'm saying that the person who made the character, if they chose options interesting to them, is going to have a character that is "good" to them. It's the perspectives from outside that seem to be saying, "That's a bad character by my perspective."

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I've seen posters on this board give examples of players building characters that didn't perform as expected, mostly because of the mechanical considerations (action economy, rest economy, etc) that are central to the complexity of D&D as a system.

The complexities mean that D&D is not transparent. It's not just a matter of, say, writing your biggest number next to the word sword or firemage on your character sheet.

So I agree the Warlock is a difficult build, this is particularly true if you try to build a roleplay character. Those opting for a power build have it easier as long as they read the rules and are fluent with the choices. I don't think it is needless though, it lets you tailor your character to suit yourself.

That said I think it is a great character to multiclass. I have a human fighter-battlemaster 6 warlock 2 in one of my campaigns. I am going to take that to Warlock 6 and the rest of way as fighter. I picked fey (fiend was not thematically viable) and will get the tome pack. Rituals do not make for a power build but they are nice to have in a campaign, especially for a character that is primarily a fighter. I have toyed with the idea of chain pact, it would be nice to have a faerie flying around doing my bidding but I think I like tome better.

blade pact seems designed for fighter types but honestly does not offer much of value I see. I carry my sword everywhere (and my hand axe .... and my dagger ..... and my net) so I won't generally need to waste an action to call a weapon from elsewhere and if I was mysteriously unarmed for some reason I would just get a weapon from another party member (better in my hands than theirs) or a dead enemy.

I multi-classed mostly for the invocations and spells which will add some versatility and flavor. I did get eldritch blast but almost didn't. My character is primarily a sword and board melee gal. Eldritch blast lets her deal damage at range when she needs to without resorting to a missile weapon, but given the choice it will still be a sword.

I see a lot of neat possibilities for this character in the future. Devil's sight + darkness giving everyone else except me disadvantage. I have already used hex quite a bit, I work it in cooperation with the party mage or cleric, find out what spell they are going to cast next turn and hex someone with a penalty on that save. Works great with banishment, even with a good Charisma(?) save he will still often fail because of the hex. Put a tough enemy out of the fight while you mop up the minions. Then buff and heal, surround the area he is going to return to and chop him to peices when the caster ends the spell.

auburn2 said:

blade pact seems designed for fighter types but honestly does not offer much of value I see. I carry my sword everywhere (and my hand axe .... and my dagger ..... and my net) so I won't generally need to waste an action to call a weapon from elsewhere and if I was mysteriously unarmed for some reason I would just get a weapon from another party member (better in my hands than theirs) or a dead enemy.

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I generally figure the pact bladder is something the Warlock calls as he's entering a dungeon and put up on exit. Its main benefit is that you can't actually be left without a weapon.

To be totally honest, though, none of the pacts grant particularly useful (or even interesting) bonuses. The Warlock had the potential to be one of the most engaging classes, but you almost have to fight against the system to get it there.

Mercule said:

To be totally honest, though, none of the pacts grant particularly useful (or even interesting) bonuses.

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I beg to differ. While the Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Chain may be underwhelming, Pact of the Tome is very useful in the abilities that it grants.

You get 3 cantrips from ANY spell list. This allows the Warlock to get access to the best utility cantrips and allows for combos that are normally only accessible via multiclassing or come online much later for a Bard. Book of Ancient Secrets is the ultimate ritual casting ability, as it also allows for the Warlock to have access to ritual spells from ANY spell list.

ChrisCarlson said:

I'm also a bit confused. The original poster is one of those who has repeatedly expressed a clear opinion that warlocks are only ever going to take EB, the supporting feats for EB and spam it all day long. How does doing that make it a complicated class? Seems pretty straight forward and blandly simply to me. His opening post says some new players may not know they are almost required to do this*. That is a totally different issue than claiming a class is complex (or not).



(*I disagree that taking EB, and the associated invocations, are required at all to play a fun and effective warlock. But that's a different topic.)

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Personaly Warlock comes off as a Fighter Champion I mean how complicated is it really you get your invocations most people see that oh Cantrip + chrisma means better damage sold and take that with some exceptions other than that oh I got all these spells I can cast opps I have no slots left ok I use EB durr; oh wait I got this invocation oh I used that have to wait for long rest EB durr. Sorry what I seen of full Warlock reeks of Champion fighter other than some nice features. I yet to see it be complicated other than deciding which invocations to pick

I will disagree with the OP and say that Warlock is indeed the simplest caster option, moreso than Sorcerer. While there is no big sign saying what spells to pick, the Warlock at our table naturally chose Eldritch Blast without knowing it was "required" simply by virtue of it having the biggest die roll. She did, however, not pick Hex. But this hasn't "broken" the character because we've gotten along just fine without it (she's picking it her next level though).

What makes the Warlock a "simple" caster is its lack of combat resources to manage. There are no Sorcerer Points to keep track of, spells refresh on a Short Rest, and their main damage comes from a Cantrip. Plus they are working with a much smaller spell list, so there is less to keep track of.

WarpedAcorn said:

I will disagree with the OP and say that Warlock is indeed the simplest caster option, moreso than Sorcerer. While there is no big sign saying what spells to pick, the Warlock at our table naturally chose Eldritch Blast without knowing it was "required" simply by virtue of it having the biggest die roll. She did, however, not pick Hex. But this hasn't "broken" the character because we've gotten along just fine without it (she's picking it her next level though).

What makes the Warlock a "simple" caster is its lack of combat resources to manage. There are no Sorcerer Points to keep track of, spells refresh on a Short Rest, and their main damage comes from a Cantrip. Plus they are working with a much smaller spell list, so there is less to keep track of.

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This is my feeling, as well. When we added my daughter (11, at the time) to our group, she ended up with a Sorcerer -- mainly because she got her seat because the Wizard was gone for a few sessions. After a couple months, I ended up rebuilding her character as a Warlock* and it was a lot easier for her.

* I reworked the dragon bloodline into an Elder Wyrm patron. She's pledged to a member of the Chamber in Eberron. It actually works really well for me to be able to give her some DM hints in the form of occasional insights about the Prophecy.

Z. H. Darkstar said:

I beg to differ. While the Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Chain may be underwhelming, Pact of the Tome is very useful in the abilities that it grants.

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I also beg to differ!

Pact of chain is very useful, mostly not in combat, but before combat starts or on social interactions. Having an invisible familiar as a scout / spy, a lot of party ambushes can be prevented. Also having a familiar that always has advantage on perception checks is really useful. Especially with the MM side bar, that the passive magic resistance of the familiar is shared with its master - if your DM allows side bar notes.

And a Hold monster at-will for elementals, celestials etc. is just a nice bonus.

For pact of blade - usually MC to make this build effective or the Darkness + Devil's sight combo.

green_destiny said:

For pact of blade - usually MC to make this build effective or the Darkness + Devil's sight combo.

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You could also use this to create a weapon for a melee player at your table to use. This would only be helpful if you are facing something with resistances to normal weapons, and did not possess any yourself, but if so then you can create anything for them to use. According the text, even if the weapon goes more than 5ft from you then it disappears in 1min, so they still have 10 rounds to use the weapon (which should cover most combat).