How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

Hawk Diesel · Apr 7, 2019

SkidAce said:
So followup question.

Are we okay with a say STR 15 character casually tossing party members across all pits and chasms at least 25 feet across? (Assuming most characters have at least a 10 STR)

I am. For those who aren't, I'm curious. Why is it ok for wizards to summon fire and force from nothing, barbarians to wade into battle safely without armor, but you draw the line at people throwing one another?

Also, for those of you that doubt the possibility of this happening, especially a medium creature tossing a small one, check out the weight throw. It is an indoor track and field event similar to the hammer toss, but it weighs 35 lbs. A gnome or halfling with a special harness could easily be thrown a decent distance by someone even of moderate strength with good technique.

The video below is of the weight throw at a college meet. The number below the athlete's name is the number of meters they toss that 35lb weight. I'm sure that these college athletes are less capable than fantasy warriors.

https://youtu.be/OAWN4vpz3K4

Shiroiken · Apr 7, 2019

I think it really depends on what kind of game you want to run. The fastball special is an iconic and awesome comic book maneuver. It's appropriate in a game where the PCs are basically super-powered beings that are extraordinary by merely losing the N from NPC. It's not appropriate in a game that tries to incorporate physics or realism, because it breaks immersion. Mechanically, assuming the DM allows it, I think the best method would be to determine the character's Jump Distance using the thrower's Strength, rather than the "ball's" while the thrown character has to make a Dex/Acrobatics check to control the landing. The primary benefit is a low str/ high dex character can get a much higher/longer jump than normal at the cost of 2 actions. A simpler, but probably more abuseable option, would be to have the Thrower make an improvised weapon attack against the target (range determined by the DM), while the fastball readies to attack once within range.

In a game with realism, a better maneuver would be something like Cap helping Black Widow "catch a ride" in Avengers Assemble. She needs a higher jump that she could normally perform, which is an example of what Strength/Athletics can be used for, and Cap is providing the Help Action. Something like this is useful for getting party members over a pit, such as Aragorn tossing Gimli.

SkidAce · Apr 7, 2019

5ekyu said:
No. My suggestion was the thrower applies their jump distance to the "ball" using athletics. So you are not adding a new distance, just using your action and skill to apply that distance to snother.

So, a str 15 fighter could throw the 8 str togue across a 15' pit, if success made on check. Thry vould thrn jump over thrmselves. This is just a different way than the fighter jumps first, holds rope, shimmy across rope option they already had.

For an in-combat maneuver, its gonna get the rogue either advsntsge or disadvantage on an attack depending on the athletics check.

The question was semi-rhetorical and meant to highlight that whatever method is determined, the players will likely start using it in place of jumping.

Just a thought.

Hawk Diesel · Apr 7, 2019

SkidAce said:
The question was semi-rhetorical and meant to highlight that whatever method is determined, the players will likely start using it in place of jumping.

Just a thought.

You could apply an exhaustion mechanic to limit the maneuver. After throwing someone once, you need a short rest before you can attempt it again. Any more than that results in cumulative levels of exhaustion.

5ekyu · Apr 7, 2019

SkidAce said:
The question was semi-rhetorical and meant to highlight that whatever method is determined, the players will likely start using it in place of jumping.

Just a thought.

That's fine and if you had rhetorically mentioned 15 ft instead of 25 ft and str 15 instead of str 10 I would have left it that way.

Like i said, the reason i leverage the existing jump distance is to avoid any surprise bypass. Throwing or jumping- they get the same result - different follow-ups tho.

Blue · Apr 8, 2019

This particular situation came up in another thread and my answer was simple: If one character is helping throw another, use the higher STR for a jump check and apply advantage.

This is the equivalent of one character using the help action (or whatever it's called out of combat) and one person jumping. The advantage is using the better STR either way.

EDIT: [MENTION=7706]SkidAce[/MENTION] pointed out that advantage doesn't help distance, just clearing obstacles and the like. I plead brain holdover from an earlier edition. Okay, my solution only partially works.

SkidAce · Apr 8, 2019

But [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION], jumping a standard distance requires no jump check, sow how would advantage be helpful?

Blue · Apr 8, 2019

SkidAce said:
But [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION], jumping a standard distance requires no jump check, sow how would advantage be helpful?

Bwahaha, you are completely right. Holdover from earlier editions. You only need the check for doing things like clearing an obstacle, not for distance.

Nice catch, I'll go correct my post.

Mort · Apr 8, 2019

SkidAce said:
But [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION], jumping a standard distance requires no jump check, sow how would advantage be helpful?

Not Blue, but I can think of 2 relatively common situations where advantage would prove useful:

1. the jump involves clearing an obstacle (generally a DC 10 athletics check);

2. there's someone you want to attack at the end of the jump (say the villain jumped across a rooftop and you're going after him). The "fastball special" could essentially be treated as the help action to a) gain advantage on an attack roll or b) gain advantage on an athletics check to knock the running villain prone - allowing the rest of the group to catch up.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 8, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
A few thoughts:

If there are no obstacles between you, your teammate, and the target, the throw can largely be flavor. If you are being "thrown," then just use your movement speed and describe yourself as being thrown.

[sblock=sblocked to avoid too long a post]Now, I know the fastball special well. And in the comics, while I think Colossus provides a lot of the power, Wolverine is timing his jump off Colossus as well to maximize the distance. So if there was an obstacle, such as a chasm to leap over or a higher platform, I think I would just either A) Allow the person being thrown to double their normal long jump distance with a running start (even if they technically didn't get a running start; I would also allow this distance to be included as height too, so long as the toss wasn't just straight up), or B) Allow the person being thrown to be considered as if they are making a long jump with a running start, and add the thrower's strength score.

Also, because we are talking heroes (at least, in my games the players are more powerful and heroic than the average person), I would add 10ft for each degree bigger the thrower is than the one being tossed. So a Goliath throwing a gnome would get an extra 20ft to their toss.

Now, the extra distances assumes that the thrower is using their action to make the throw. But I also agree there should be some additional combat benefit as well. I like the idea of adding 1d6 damage per 10ft thrown. It's not a lot of damage, and its not a move that will be used every turn (especially because the thrower would have to catch up). I doubt doing this would break the game or be too abusable. I'd also say the move is impossible to attempt if there is an enemy within 5ft (though if the thrower is sacrificing themselves while tossing an ally out of danger, I'd probably allow it. Maybe give every enemy an opportunity attack on the thrower, but not the one being thrown). And if the players do start to abuse it, well I'm sure their reputation will begin to proceed them and their enemies, being smart and logical, would begin making strategic decisions to take advantage of the maneuver.

I also don't think there necessarily needs to be proficiency in athletics or acrobatics. It could be assumed that the group is practicing these team maneuvers in their downtime, so I'm ok with not requiring that.

I think I would also place the one being tossed as the one responsible for the attack roll. If they succeed, they hit and get that extra damage. But I also think that succeed or fail, the one being throw is going to land prone next to the target. It is not easy to land from a toss like that. I also might allow the one being thrown to forego they damage to either knock the target prone with them, or shove them back 10ft.

But, full disclosure, I'm much more on the lenient side as a DM, and would rather keep the action going than worry about the maneuver failing outside of the attack hitting. Unless there is some significant hazard that needs to be taken into account that could affect the outcome (like hurricane winds, icy/mudding footing, ect), I would just let the maneuver succeed and success or failure be determined solely on the hit.[/sblock]

That all makes sense. I'm fine with a single check by the thrown character, as well. I'd allow an athletics check to get more distance, but I also do that with jumping, and even for exceeding your speed when Dashing.

akr71 said:
I haven't given it much thought because my players tend to act on their own. I do support crazy maneuvers and try to let them succeed, but to date it has only been solo stuff. Succeed or fail, stunts and 'out-of-the-box' thinking makes the game fun and memorable for them and me and it keeps them coming back to the table.

Of the top of my head, I would ask the thrower for an Athletics check and the throwee for an Acrobatics check. The DC would be based on the distance needed to be thrown. If both succeed, I would allow the throwee's Attack (or whatever action they were attempting) to be at Advantage.

Would a failure on either skill check result in potential disaster/the thing not working, or just "you don't have advantage on the attack"?
I'm not a fan of more than 1 total check per participant, unless it's being run like a skill challenge, where you have to succeed on X checks before failing Y checks. More than 1/PC, with any 1 failure meaning total failure, is effectively extra-super-disadvantage.

5ekyu said:
For a fantssy non-supers gane i would keep it simple.

-snip for brevity-

Almost certainly the ball draws AO in transit.

I don't think I'd go with that last part, unless those OA rolls are made with disadvantage. Generally, cool special movement, as well as forced movement, don't trigger OAs. Also, I figure you're travelling MUCH faster than you would by running. Having had friends who do french cane fighting, which often includes flipping over people, I've seen how hard it actually is to accurately attack a target that is flying through the air, unless you've practiced doing so A LOT. It just happens faster than your decision making processes, and thus relies on reflex/implicit memory. But either way, for gamist reasons I wouldn't do it, anyway.

Oofta said:
I wouldn't add a ton of distance either way, just use the highest distance possible jump ignoring special class features or magic and give advantage to the person being thrown to their skill check. All the other action economy restrictions would still apply.

Why not add distance?

SkidAce said:
*as long as their are no monk movement, jump spell shenanigans allowed to stack

I wouldn't call any of that "shenanigans". Why wouldn't a monk be able to use Step of The Wind as part of the manuever, or a bladesinger use Jump, or the thrower be buffed with Enlarge or Enhance Ability?

Since walking speed doesn't change your jump distance, I'm not sure how the monk's base speed would even factor in, other than moving after being thrown?

SkidAce said:
So followup question.

Are we okay with a say STR 15 character casually tossing party members across all pits and chasms at least 25 feet across? (Assuming most characters have at least a 10 STR)

If the math adds up that way (assuming a creature that counts as large throwing a small creature, or similar), I don't see why not.

Charlaquin said:
Are we talking about the idea of throwing another party member? How I handle it is I tell the players it’s not gonna happened. The expression “I (don’t) trust you as far as I could throw you” exists because throwing people is basically impossible.

Incorrect. Here is proof. If you don't want to watch the video, it's a guiness record being made. A guy throws a 130lb guy 17.5 feet.
https://youtu.be/cB_vlaP-3uo

Greg K said:
I am not. If my players begin attempting it, I would be suggesting that we switch genres and use one of the many supers games that I own. If I was a player in a group where players were attempting it and the GM allowed it, I would be very quickly looking for another group and, sincerely, wish them well in their enjoyment.

Why? Nothing wrong with enjoying or not enjoying what you enjoy or don't enjoy, just curious. Especially in the case of big races like goliaths and firbolgs throwing small races...this is completely realistic. Like, the guy who has the record for throwing another guy threw a 130lb dude 17 1/2 feet, and he isn't even the strongest guy in the world. Is it just a situation where it feels gonzo to you, even if it is actually realistic, or is it something else?

Shiroiken said:
I think it really depends on what kind of game you want to run. The fastball special is an iconic and awesome comic book maneuver. It's appropriate in a game where the PCs are basically super-powered beings that are extraordinary by merely losing the N from NPC. It's not appropriate in a game that tries to incorporate physics or realism, because it breaks immersion.

See above replies. It's literally realistic.