D&D 5E Clerics of Life: Broken, Bad Design, or Working as Intended?

Blackbrrd said:

Triple? I would like to see the math on that if you could supply it?

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Sure. It is mostly the disciple of life ability and its channel divinity ability.

Assuming 16 wisdom
Word of healing
1d4+3= 5.5 avg normal cleric
1d4+6= 8.5 avg Life cleric

Prayer of healing
2d8+3 12 avg normal cleric
2d8+8 17 avg life cleric

Mass healing word
1d4+3 5.5
1d4+8 10.5

\Mass Cure
3d8 +4 (18 wisdom 17.5 avg)
3d8+11 24.5 avg) life cleric

Just by itself the life cleric heals around 50 to almost 100% more just using disciple of life. Disciple of life is also great with the mass healing spells like mass healing word, prayer of healing and mass cure.

Preserve life and blessed healer fill in the rest. By level 6 preserve life heals 30 damage per short rest which is 60 hit points assuming the rules default of 2 per day and blessed healer heals the cleric as well which would normally require more spells from the cleric to heal themselves. A level 6 cleric might have an 18 wisdom but you need to cast a lot of spells to add up to the amount preserve life heals as it is the equivalent of around 8 extra cure spells or several prayers of healing. By level 12 preserve life is healing 60hp per use per short rest which is kind of like having 2 extra heal spells available per short rest.

The amount of healing is easily over 100% more than a normal cleric and can hit X3 healing over a normal cleric past level 6. Most of the time I think you would be looking at around 150% healing maybe 200% depending and that is triple healing. At low levels (1-5) the life cleric probably only heals around double the hp compared to any other cleric.

DMZ2112 said:

Possibly. It doesn't meet my definition of "deadly," but at least now I have a calibration. Regardless, the table loved every second of what took almost six hours to adjudicate. It was a great encounter.



It was the only encounter that day. It would have come out to 1100 XP per PC.

I'll go into more detail in a future campaign report, but the short version is that we're talking about Lost Mine of Phandelver. The PCs freed the captive with a sizable bribe to the bugbear leader and immediately regretted it, realizing that they had dramatically affected the power balance in the region. They resolved to return and right the wrong, and did so at 5th level to find a partially rebuilt castle and a small personal army consisting not only of the bugbear's original forces but goblinoid reinforcements and what remained of the bandits from earlier in the adventure. They holed up in the Temple of Maglubiyet and held the doors for nine rounds against a brutal onslaught. It was something to see.

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That sounds like a fantastic battle!

As for deadly, maybe it would help to put it in perspective of a "normal" workday of 3,500xp for each level 5 PC. So a PC "should" (again, the guidelines speaking not me) go through that much difficulty 2 more times (or some other arrangement of encounters) to fill out the rest of the work day. Do you think they would be able to do it, or would they start dying through attrition?

And if the Life Cleric somehow makes it to level 17, it stops rolling dice for healing. Maximum possible value is used instead.

At 5th level, a life domain cleric has cure wounds as a domain spell, the disciple of life feature which adds 2+ spell level points of healing to healing spells cast and the channel divinity -preserve life feature usable 1/short rest that heals 25 hp spread around to allies within 30 feet.

When there are healing spells available for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level slots that any cleric can have, that adds up to quite a bit of healing.

Lets see the healing that a fully rested 5th level life domain cleric with an 18 wisdom can churn out during a combat: (assuming a party of six)

1 use of channel divinity- 25 points spread around ( note that no one target can be healed beyond half maximum with this.

4 castings of cure wounds with 1st level spell slots - 8-15 (11.5 avg) points per casting with disciple of life. 46

3 castings of cure wounds with 2nd level spell slots- 10-24 (17 avg) points per casting with disciple of life. 51

2 castings of Mass healing word with 3rd level spell slots 10-13 x 6 ( 69 avg) points per casting with disciple of life. 138

260 points of healing on average for a full load out. ( add 25 points to this for another CD use if a short rest is taken)

Lets compare a cleric of another domain under similar circumstances:

No points from channel divinity powers.

4 castings of cure wounds with 1st level spell slots - 5-12 (8.5 avg) points per casting . 34

3 castings of cure wounds with 2nd level spell slots- 6-20 (13 avg) points per casting. 39

2 castings of Mass healing word with 3rd level spell slots 5-9 x 6 ( 42 avg) points per casting. 84

157 points on average for a full load out.


The life domain cleric is crazy good at healing but that's kind of their forte isn't it?

Lets take a look at a deadly encounter for the group:

If they were fighting 5 CR 4 creatures for a 5500 XP fight, such a group (based on the chart) will be inflicting 147.5 points of damage PER ROUND on the party!

Suddenly, healing 260 or so total points for the day doesn't seem so excessive. In general, a life cleric can keep a party going a bit longer than another cleric but I don't think there is anything broken about that.

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] some good information, but I don't think I agree on your conclusion?

In your original statement, you talked about triple rate of healing, but it seems it's more about triple the amount of healing? Preserve life can't heal anyone up to more than half maximum hp, so it's not like having an extra Heal spell at all?

For fairly low levels, you have:

Assuming 16 wisdom
Word of healing
1d4+3= 5.5 avg normal cleric
1d4+6= 8.5 avg Life cleric

Cure wounds (as a 2nd level spell)
2d8+3 12 avg normal cleric
2d8+8 17 avg life cleric

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Let's say both are used, we then get 17.5 vs 25.5, or 45% higher rate of healing, not 200%. The same goes for the higher level versions of these spells, at least until level 17.

I think it's important to differentiate between in combat healing (which dramatically changes how tough opponents the party can handle) and out of combat healing (which affects how many combats the party can have in a day). Therefore, I think rate of healing, which is what you first mentioned is the thing to look for, or at least look at primarily.

I also think that levels 1-10 are the most interesting ones. If you start looking at level 11-20 you start getting really funky things like the druid that can give himself close to infinite temp hp through shape changing.

Anyway, I think the Life Cleric looks good, but it's not triple the rate of healing, it looks more like +30-50%. It's maybe triple the amount, but that is something I am fine with. It's out of combat and won't affect the balance in the game nearly as much as in combat healing rate.

Blackbrrd said:

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] some good information, but I don't think I agree on your conclusion?

In your original statement, you talked about triple rate of healing, but it seems it's more about triple the amount of healing? Preserve life can't heal anyone up to more than half maximum hp, so it's not like having an extra Heal spell at all?

For fairly low levels, you have:

Let's say both are used, we then get 17.5 vs 25.5, or 45% higher rate of healing, not 200%. The same goes for the higher level versions of these spells, at least until level 17.

I think it's important to differentiate between in combat healing (which dramatically changes how tough opponents the party can handle) and out of combat healing (which affects how many combats the party can have in a day). Therefore, I think rate of healing, which is what you first mentioned is the thing to look for, or at least look at primarily.

I also think that levels 1-10 are the most interesting ones. If you start looking at level 11-20 you start getting really funky things like the druid that can give himself close to infinite temp hp through shape changing.

Anyway, I think the Life Cleric looks good, but it's not triple the rate of healing, it looks more like +30-50%. It's maybe triple the amount, but that is something I am fine with. It's out of combat and won't affect the balance in the game nearly as much as in combat healing rate.

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We do not really do in combat healing except for healing word and mass healing word. With the life cleric the PCs usually let themselves get beaten down to low hp as the cleric and thief can use bonus actions to restore them (thief has the healer feat).

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] that kind of explains it. Healing word does get a pretty hefty boost when cast by a Life Cleric. Might it just have been your wording that was a bit misleading in your first post? In other words, you were talking about amount (disregarding casting time) the whole time?

I wondered if there was something I missed when you mentioned triple healing rate.

DMZ2112 said:

So my question is this: given that the Cleric of Life does seem to make the other members of the party effective beyond their actual level, providing a sort of CR multiplier, is this a problem? Is the class broken? Or is the inclusion of such a class bad design to begin with?

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I'd question the underlying assumptions, but even if the underlying assumptions hold true, I'm not convinced it's a problem.

DMZ2112 said:

I ran a "deadly" encounter for a balanced eight-man 5th-level party including a Cleric of Life, and it ended with everyone on their feet.

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My question would be: What happened in the 5th or 6th encounter that day?

5e isn't strongly encounter-based. It's fine for that to happen in one deadly encounter first thing in the morning. It means that when you're hitting the end of your adventuring day, the tension is stronger. If you're only having one encounter in the day, your party is getting off easy (even if its a "deadly" encounter).

I have always disliked the whackamole aspect to Dnd with PCs hitting zero then bouncing back up next round. Which is probably exacerbated by a life cleric.

This is why we use the injury rules! Nearly any combat can have a lasting/meaningful effect. I should not I have changed the injury rules a little - any effect cured by "magical healing" requires restoriation, greater restoration or 6th level + magic. And I give death saves for lost limb etc - if they make the save, just fractured/broken limb, not lost.

What I take from the quote in the OP is that Jester is replying to someone that thinks not having a Cleric of Life in a party dooms it to failure. Which obviously is not true.

Anecdotally, my group's 4-member party includes a cleric of war that can heal when needed and a paladin that can back him up and there hasn't been any issues, even the odd time one of those players couldn't make the game.