D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

Celtavian said:

He does 1d8+1d6+17 per attack. So he did 100 or so in round one of her 180 points.

Click to expand...

Flamestrike said:

4 bow attacks (assuming ranger plus sharpshooter plus Dex 20 plus +2 bow) is 5d8+68 damage. Not bad rolling on that 5d8.

Even with the resource expenditure and house rule that lets the PCs double down on buffs that's some good luck for the PC.

Click to expand...

Celtavian has set out the damage. I assume that is 1d8 from weapon, +1d6 from Hunter's Mark, +2 from magic, +5 from stat, +10 from feat.

The average of 1d8+1d6 is 8; so the average overall is 25 per hit. Four times 25 equals 100.

I'm not going to do the maths on rolling 4d8 + 4d6, but I think the likelihood of that tending towards average is going to be pretty good.

Based on the parameters that [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] has provided, I don't think this is particularly lucky. A fairly average number of hits (.775*5 = 3.875, which is not much lower than 4) for an average amount of damage.

IMO, the Marilith encounter is a bad example to use for this case, leading the discussion down the garden path...

I feel that one encountered on its own, would be a subpar representation of a Marilith (this does not read: 'DM Celtavian played it wrong'), encountering a marilith on it's own is not common, possibly rare. So I find a group of six level 10 PC's making short work of a Marilith not uncommon, even if it is in the Hard/Deadly range.

MM pg 53 said:

'Wielding a wicked blade in each of its six hands, a marilith is a devastating foe that few can match in battle. These demons possess keen minds and a finely honed sense of tactics, and they are able to lead and unite other demons in common cause. Mariliths are often encountered as captains at the head of a demonic horde, where they embrace any opportunity to rush headlong into battle.'

Click to expand...

I also would like to note, that if my party of 'annoying' optimized PCs were not being challenged by the solo Marilith, I would use the Marilith's at will Teleport to move 120' and evoke the variant option:

1/day Variant:Demon Summoning MM pg54 said:

'A marilith has a 50 percent chance of summoning 1d6 vrocks, 1d4 hezrous, 1d3 glabrezus, 1d2 nalfeshnees, or 1 one marilith.'

Click to expand...

it's 50/50, but if it lands..

Furthering that, it is my experience with my group of 5-7 players of a similar level, placing a single anything against them doesn't work well, that is, it's a case by case thing...some solo monsters of appropriate CR wreak havoc, some fall incredibly short. Thankfully these things become evident as they level and I build encounters accordingly. Thus, I find myself putting balanced numbers (in an appropriate CR range) against them, and less solo fights. If the do encounter solo fights, it is most likely as a second or third wave, likely a BBEG..

pemerton said:

Celtavian has set out the damage. I assume that is 1d8 from weapon, +1d6 from Hunter's Mark, +2 from magic, +5 from stat, +10 from feat.

The average of 1d8+1d6 is 8; so the average overall is 25 per hit. Four times 25 equals 100.

I'm not going to do the maths on rolling 4d8 + 4d6, but I think the likelihood of that tending towards average is going to be pretty good.

Based on the parameters that @Celtavian has provided, I don't think this is particularly lucky. A fairly average number of hits (.775*5 = 3.875, which is not much lower than 4) for an average amount of damage.

Click to expand...

This character had hunters mark, bless and haste up on it?

Heh. There is about zero chance of this happening in my campaign. You need a ridiculously good series of initiative rolls and a massive resource expenditure.

That this campaigns DM can't see how he's creating this mess shocks me.

Flamestrike said:

This character had hunters mark, bless and haste up on it?

Heh. There is about zero chance of this happening in my campaign. You need a ridiculously good series of initiative rolls and a massive resource expenditure.

That this campaigns DM can't see how he's creating this mess shocks me.

Click to expand...

WHen all 7 of my PCs show up, I find this sort of thing happening, the cleric using his conc. on Bless, the Sorc on a twinned Haste, Our barb and Monk the recipients...its not pretty, but I've learned to deal with it

I especially want to thank Pemerton (and possibly others?) for going that extra mile and providing the number crunching.

It's essential for showing that the kind of damage some groups find outrageous unbelievable stratospheric... is completely regular for others.

A good showcase of just how far minmaxing can take you.

IF the DM plays along.

I feel the core issue here is the divide between different viewpoints.

Celtavian represents the quintessential power gaming group. The fun comes from optimization. Having a DM that combats this, either by discouraging the minmaxing itself, or by applying strong tactics for the enemy, makes it less fun.

This kind of group wants monster stats that have tricks that at least makes it challenging to fight them, even if you use every trick in the book. Being able to use simple combos to trivialize the fight is a disappointment for them.

The solution isn't to fight the charop, since that's a main source of fun and satisfaction. The d20 solution was to make everything super complex, which at least gave the DM tools to overcome some easy combos. At the price of ridiculous complexity and still not any balance, see Pun Pun.

The solution in 5e, I think, is not to go to Ridiculous Speed visavi the monsters, but to "voluntarily" scale back on the party's starting power level. The idea is to allow minmaxing from a lower level, so the highs doesn't overwhelm the simpler monster design.

Which is a cornerstone. Adding complexity to monsters is a dead end. When you spend an hour to create a high level wizard that is killed in 3 seconds, you know "never again".

So if 5e has a problem; it's that the cost was set too low for certain character options. It's too "cheap" to build a character with darkvision mobility ranged attacks, put simply.

Flamestrike said:

This character had hunters mark, bless and haste up on it?

Heh. There is about zero chance of this happening in my campaign. You need a ridiculously good series of initiative rolls and a massive resource expenditure.

Click to expand...

Is there a reason you can't just read [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]'s post?

Haste was not in play in the first-round shooting of the Marilith: there was Bless and Hunter's Mark. The fifth attack roll came from a ranger class feature granting an additional attack in the first round of combat.

Haste seems to have been cast later on in the combat.

A marilith's initiative bonus is +5, isn't it (from DEX)? It's not that remarkable for two out of 6 PCs to go before it, especially the one who also has +5 DEX. (And that's ssuming they did go first - they may have cast their spells while the Marilith closed - Celtavian's post doesn't make the turn sequence entirely clear.)

I also don't find two 1st level spells in a party of 6 10th level PCs to be massive resource expenditure in the opening round, and I already documented how the overall expenditure is not terribly massive but is in fact less than one 10th level full casters load-out.

Radaceus said:

IMO, the Marilith encounter is a bad example to use for this case, leading the discussion down the garden path...

I feel that one encountered on its own, would be a subpar representation of a Marilith (this does not read: 'DM Celtavian played it wrong'), encountering a marilith on it's own is not common, possibly rare.

Click to expand...

It's so rare that it didn't happen in Celtavian's game either! The marilith had vrock, hezrou and chasme demons with it.

CapnZapp said:

I especially want to thank Pemerton (and possibly others?) for going that extra mile and providing the number crunching.

Click to expand...

No worries. [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] obviously doesn't need anyone to white knight for him (!), but some of the comments being made seem to me to be way off base.

I'm a great believer in actual play posts, rather than abstract speculation, generalisation or theory-crafting, and Celtavian has provided a pretty clear actual play post that explains how his group defeated this marilith + friends encounter pretty straightforwardly (with an admitted misreading of the Banishment spell - we don't know how much difference it would have made had the Concentration requirement been imposed).

CapnZapp said:

I feel the core issue here is the divide between different viewpoints.

Celtavian represents the quintessential power gaming group. The fun comes from optimization. Having a DM that combats this, either by discouraging the minmaxing itself, or by applying strong tactics for the enemy, makes it less fun.

This kind of group wants monster stats that have tricks that at least makes it challenging to fight them, even if you use every trick in the book. Being able to use simple combos to trivialize the fight is a disappointment for them.

The solution isn't to fight the charop, since that's a main source of fun and satisfaction. The d20 solution was to make everything super complex, which at least gave the DM tools to overcome some easy combos. At the price of ridiculous complexity and still not any balance, see Pun Pun.

The solution in 5e, I think, is not to go to Ridiculous Speed visavi the monsters, but to "voluntarily" scale back on the party's starting power level. The idea is to allow minmaxing from a lower level, so the highs doesn't overwhelm the simpler monster design.

Which is a cornerstone. Adding complexity to monsters is a dead end. When you spend an hour to create a high level wizard that is killed in 3 seconds, you know "never again".

So if 5e has a problem; it's that the cost was set too low for certain character options. It's too "cheap" to build a character with darkvision mobility ranged attacks, put simply.

Click to expand...

I think you're right about different viewpoints. Certainly, from the optimising point of view the suggestion to sunder the PC archer's bow is bad in so many ways, as Celtavian, Hemlock and others have pointed out.

I don't think my group is at Celtavian's degree of optimisation, but I've had other posters express surprise at the number of encounters (including but not limited to combat encounters) that my 4e party can get through without an extended rest. So I think, either in individual build or in synergistic play, my players are probably somewhere near the upper end of the spectrum.

We've been lucky, I think, that no super-obvious "win" options have emerged in our game (nothing analogous to the ranged attack dominance in 5e, or the darkvision shenanigans), and 4e provides good support for complex monsters, tricky tactics and interesting environments. (I know Celtavian hasn't played much 4e, but I think his group could enjoy it, by the sounds of things.)

Your prescription for 5e seems sensible. And Celtavian has said himself that he wants to dial back Sharpshooter, which seems to be one of the biggest issues. (Maybe also make Close Quarters and Archery either/or, rather than stacking?)

pemerton said:

Is there a reason you can't just read [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]'s post?

Haste was not in play in the first-round shooting of the Marilith: there was Bless and Hunter's Mark. The fifth attack roll came from a ranger class feature granting an additional attack in the first round of combat.

Haste seems to have been cast later on in the combat.

A marilith's initiative bonus is +5, isn't it (from DEX)? It's not that remarkable for two out of 6 PCs to go before it, especially the one who also has +5 DEX. (And that's ssuming they did go first - they may have cast their spells while the Marilith closed - Celtavian's post doesn't make the turn sequence entirely clear.)

I also don't find two 1st level spells in a party of 6 10th level PCs to be massive resource expenditure in the opening round, and I already documented how the overall expenditure is not terribly massive but is in fact less than one 10th level full casters load-out.

It's so rare that it didn't happen in Celtavian's game either! The marilith had vrock, hezrou and chasme demons with it.

Click to expand...

Whats this ranger ability that lets him shoot the marilith an extra time?

Another houseruled ability?

Also, its a ton of resources. If my PCs went first and were asomehow able to win initiative and decide in the six seconds I give them to spend actions buffing the crap out of the ranger, who then action surged and did 100 points of damage, then good on them.

I assure you this encounter would have gone down very differently at my table (and my players are very optimisation savvy).

Flamestrike said:

Whats this ranger ability that lets him shoot the marilith an extra time?

Another houseruled ability?

Also, its a ton of resources. If my PCs went first and were asomehow able to win initiative and decide in the six seconds I give them to spend actions buffing the crap out of the ranger, who then action surged and did 100 points of damage, then good on them.

I assure you this encounter would have gone down very differently at my table (and my players are very optimisation savvy).

Click to expand...

Ambuscade from one of the uas a really broken skill imo.

Azurewraith said:

Ambuscade from one of the uas a really broken skill imo.

Click to expand...

So... he was using an UA class, armed with several buff spells thanks to a houserule that overrides the concentration mechanic, rolled above average, and was able to deal 100 points of damage to a Marilith that was placed 120' away from him, in his only encounter for the day?

This is supposed to be evidence that 'the game is broken'?