D&D 5E Rules Discussion: Somatic Components and Restrained

The Human Target said:

I completely disagree.

If a restrained character can make a weapon attack with disadvantage I see no reason to say someone couldn't cast a spell.

Though if it was an attack spell I would give the target advantage on its saving throw.

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That's where I would go: Disadvantage on ranged attack spells, Advantage on Spells requiring a Save.

Spells such as Bless or Cure Wounds...Depends on my mood/Coffee Level/Brain function. Ideally, sitting here and thinking I'd like to rule: If the cleric was a mace and shield type, I'd probably rule they would have to drop one 1st to free a hand (their choice). If they are a mace only or shield only cleric (ie one hand was free prior to web) I'd roll randomly to see which hand was stuck and go from there (free hand stuck? Must drop weapon/shield to cast. Weapon/shield hand stuck? You're free to cast). In practice, I'd probably just allow these non-save, non-attack spells to go off without a hitch.

Ruzak said:

This is an important question. We have a whole class of spells (restraining) and we don't know how they affect a whole class of actions (spells). I for one would like a official ruling, such as through an FAQ. Of course as others mentioned there will always be corner cases, and that's why we have DMs (& message boards).

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Its always going to depend on how you are 'Restrained' (Or 'Grappled' for that matter). If a spell freezes your feet to the floor, your not going to have your hands effected. If on the other hand your handcuffed or fall face first into a magical web, then its pretty clear your hands are not going to be completely free.

If they keep arguing tell them to full rules are in the DMG, that seems to solve most arguments here. ;o)

I agree with your initial ruling and probably would have ruled the same way.

However this thread brings up a great point. If you're technically allowed to use a sword while "restrained" in a web, then surely you could cast a spell?

To me, the issue becomes one of another perspective: if "restrained" the condition doesn't stop you from casting spells with movement, what does? What is more restrained than "restrained?" Surely manacles "restrain" someone, right? (As others have said.)

If you need something between restrained and unconscious, looking at the wording of manacles I see it uses the word "bind." Maybe that's what we're talking about - the difference between "restrained" and "bound?" But I am also sure that we don't need a huge long list of conditions to remember. And when I first read "restrained" I would have considered it the same as being "bound," and we don't need different conditions that are (or nearly are) synonyms, either.

Personally, reading the description of the spell and the definition of "restrained" again, I am back to the original ruling. There's nothing in the spell's description that says you can still attack; there's nothing in the definition of restrained that says you can, either. The only way to escape the web is to make a Dex or Str saving throw, and you get disadvantage on the Dex one. That's all it says. So to me, that means you can't do anything other than try to escape through sheer strength or somehow wiggling out.

Of course, there is enough width in the language to allow for another interpretation as well, and I see that. Really both points are valid, and it comes down to DM call and what makes sense at the time (the unconscious cleric being "more stuck" also makes sense and could be a good way to backtrack if you needed to). But I would still go with the initial call and stick by it.

Edit: Changed my mind upon further reading; see post below.

Welcome to "rulings, not rules" everybody.

evilbob said:

I agree with your initial ruling and probably would have ruled the same way.

However this thread brings up a great point. If you're technically allowed to use a sword while "restrained" in a web, then surely you could cast a spell?

To me, the issue becomes one of another perspective: if "restrained" the condition doesn't stop you from casting spells with movement, what does? What is more restrained than "restrained?" Surely manacles "restrain" someone, right? (As others have said.)

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I don't think you need to add extra standardised conditions whenever specific circumstances put additional riders on a condition. If a set of manacles is designed to impede spellcasting, I'm quite happy for that specific item's description to say "the target is Restrained, and is additionally prevented from performing the movements required to cast spells with somatic components."

I posted (up there ^) before finishing the thread.

I assumed we were talking about an unconscious person falling in a web then waking up and casting. In the more general case of webbing an awake character, I'd probably rule all casting is ok with the exception ranged being at disadvantage.

My prior post of Advantage for target making a save and the whole (do you have a hand free thing) was assuming the person fell unconscious into the web. As a DM, I often err on the side of a) You succeed! But here is a complication and b) You fail! But here is an out.

So webbing the falling character: Great! You succeed! But there is the complication of being extra stuck since you fell in unconscious...

as [MENTION=18340]CM[/MENTION] said, "Welcome to Rulings, not Rules"!

Thaumaturge said:

I missed the Mouse's reply before my previous post.



Well, we are comparing them, so...



Web restricts physical movement. Silence restricts perception. In the proper circumstances both can be lethal. And, importantly, I let the cleric in this situation cast healing word. It only has a verbal component, so he could cast regardless of his level of restraint. Each of them (potentially) removes one type of component from the spellcaster's toolbox. Teleportation magic, not available in my scenario, has all verbal components, so one could flee a web.

All that said, I generally agree with your arguments.

Thaumaturge.

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A bit late - but here are my 2 cents.

I would allow the cleric to cast:

Looking at silence - Even though it seems obvious, the spell still makes sure to state that spells with a verbal component cannot be cast.
Web has no such language, and the condition it imposes (restrained) also has no such language. There are conditions for when someone is so restrained that casting would be impossible - incapacitated or paralyzed for example. And that's not a condition the spell imposes.

Mort said:

the condition it imposes (restrained) also has no such language. There are conditions for when someone is so restrained that casting would be impossible - incapacitated or paralyzed for example.

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Ah, that's a good point. Stunned, paralyzed, petrified - those conditions all specifically state that you cannot move (or speak). Restrained does not. That's a good reason to believe that movement is still possible.

Also, I guess I misread before because restrained does specifically say you get disadvantage on attack rolls. Which implies you CAN attack. So I was just wrong there.

So I will reverse my earlier post to say that while I would have ruled the same as the OP in that situation, I would also change that ruling going forward.

Lots of things come up here:

1. I like how the OP handled this in the first place, with one exception: when the Cleric woke up I'd have given him a save at that point (probably at a penalty, or at disadvantage) to see if he got lucky in how he happened to fall into the web. If he makes that save he can cast etc. as normal, if not, he's stuck.

1a. The OP isn't clear as to what spell the Cleric cast, but if it was targeting anything other than the caster or someone standing within the caster's reach I have to ask how the caster could see the target, as web obscures vision. We also don't know, for example, whether the Cleric ended up hanging upside-down in the web; this would also impede spellcasting I would think.

2. The rules problem is not that a failed save blocks spellcasting (it should), but that on a failed save you can still swing weapons and-or fire missiles. Those are fine if you *make* your save, as is very slow movement; but if you fail your ONLY allowable action should be a Strength check to either free yourself within the web or move out of it. Put differently, the RAW are way too generous on a failed save. Put differently again, a failed save should hose pretty much anyone, not just casters.

3. I still like (and would put back in) the 1e version where on a natural '1' on your save the web is either strangling or suffocating you, leading to death if you're not soon rescued.

4. Casting in manacles is a complete non-starter with the exception of those few spells that have only V components.

Lanefan

Lanefan said:

Lots of things come up here:

1. I like how the OP handled this in the first place, with one exception: when the Cleric woke up I'd have given him a save at that point (probably at a penalty, or at disadvantage) to see if he got lucky in how he happened to fall into the web. If he makes that save he can cast etc. as normal, if not, he's stuck.

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Why have a failed save be worse than on a normal casting of the spell? Unless it's your contention that a normal casting prevents spells requiring somatic components? Which I guess is exactly what you're saying from the comments that follow.

1a. The OP isn't clear as to what spell the Cleric cast, but if it was targeting anything other than the caster or someone standing within the caster's reach I have to ask how the caster could see the target, as web obscures vision. We also don't know, for example, whether the Cleric ended up hanging upside-down in the web; this would also impede spellcasting I would think.

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You should always consider specific circumstances, true.

2. The rules problem is not that a failed save blocks spellcasting (it should), but that on a failed save you can still swing weapons and-or fire missiles. Those are fine if you *make* your save, as is very slow movement; but if you fail your ONLY allowable action should be a Strength check to either free yourself within the web or move out of it. Put differently, the RAW are way too generous on a failed save. Put differently again, a failed save should hose pretty much anyone, not just casters.

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Way too powerful an effect for a second level spell IMO. Imobalized is quite a bit more powerful than restrained and that's what you're proposing.

3. I still like (and would put back in) the 1e version where on a natural '1' on your save the web is either strangling or suffocating you, leading to death if you're not soon rescued.

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Again a bit harsh for a second level spell. I'd only expect something like this if flubs were always nasty (optional fumble mechanics for example)

4. Casting in manacles is a complete non-starter with the exception of those few spells that have only V components.

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Proper manacles? With the arms manacled to the legs and nearly immobile, maybe. At the very least should require a Dex check.