D&D 5E Rules Discussion: Somatic Components and Restrained

[Atomo]

Another issue... If the hands are restrained (I am not talking about the condition, but the fact the hand is stuck in a web, tightly chained or something that restrain its movement), the hand could not be able to slip inside your component pouch or grab your holy symbol or whatever spellcasting implement you use to be able to cast spells with MATERIAL components too...

 

[MarkB]

Another issue... If the hands are restrained (I am not talking about the condition, but the fact the hand is stuck in a web, tightly chained or something that restrain its movement), the hand could not be able to slip inside your component pouch or grab your holy symbol or whatever spellcasting implement you use to be able to cast spells with MATERIAL components too...

Sure, and one could also suggest that the character might happen to get a strand of web stuck across his mouth, preventing vocal components.

I think such things go beyond the general Restrained condition, though. If you're Restrained by manacles that prevent any significant hand movement, then you're prevented from using somatic components not by the general Restrained condition but by a specific property of that particular method of restraint.

I think it would be reasonable for restrictions upon spellcasting to be left out of the general descriptions of conditions, but spelled out within specific instances of effects which apply those conditions. However, it would be useful to know for certain whether this is indeed the approach the designers have taken.

 

[pemerton]

This came up in my game last night, and I'm wondering what people's thoughts are.

<snip>

From a balance/purely game perspective, if a caster can just hang out in web with no ill effects, that seems wrong.

I understand the "give casters a chance" crowd's reasoning. My main concern with that is I'd want to come up with a standard rule and apply it every time. It would need to be easy to remember, balanced, and simple (both "yes" and "no" best meet these criteria).

The considerations that you are stating here are metagame ones - what would make for a balanced rule that is easy to remember and apply? - but most of the discussion seems to be around issues of "realism" with respect to the fiction (eg how sticky is a web).

I think [MENTION=1268]mo[/MENTION]usferatu gives good reasons for thinking that it is not balanced for web to shut down casting. Assuming you think that's a relevant consideration, you now have a rule that's easy to remember! You just have to bend the fiction to your will.

On the other hand, if you're going to go with the fiction and let sticky webs stop casting (and archery? swordplay?) then the metagame has to come in somewhere else - web should be moved to a higher level, or have its duration shortened, or something. But at least in my experience holding all of the metagame elements constant (eg no changes in spell level) while following the logic of the fiction where it leads (webs are sticky and so stop hand movements) is the pathway to craziness in D&D play.

 

[Pickles JG]

You're basically taking a second level spell and tacking on a whole extra 2nd-level effect if it prevents casting.

You do get a DEX save against the Web. & If you make the STR check you can move away same as Silence.

I agree though preventing casting seems more than the spell intends if it allows weapon attacks.

I think the original ruling was perfectly reasonable but I would not let it set precedent.

I am glad we have all of these wordy spell descriptions now so I can look forwards to many, many more similar discussions about how they are supposed to work.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Silence and web aren't comparable, though.

Web lasts longer, and slows even those it doesn't restrain, and obscures vision, and requires a Strength check to even try to escape (or move at all).

Silence... makes things silent. While there are lots of circumstantial benefits, its only mechanical effects are penalties on Perception and canceling out vocal spells.

You're basically taking a second level spell and tacking on a whole extra 2nd-level effect if it prevents casting.

Silence has some alternate uses as well. For instance to make an assasination silent, to make it easier for the plate armor wearing character to sneak (let's say with guards on the other side of a curtain), to make it possible to hammer away at a door without waking the whole dungeon. You could try to use web to keep the plate armor guy silent, but the part where he can't move is kind of annoying.

In other words, that Web hampers spellcasting, and Silence does as well doesn't make one or the other redudant.

 

[Thaumaturge]

I am glad we have all of these wordy spell descriptions now so I can look forwards to many, many more similar discussions about how they are supposed to work.

I know you're being sarcastic.

I'm not. I like these spell descriptions and this process.

I think @mouseferatu gives good reasons for thinking that it is not balanced for web to shut down casting. Assuming you think that's a relevant consideration, you now have a rule that's easy to remember! You just have to bend the fiction to your will.

I agree, though silence continues to be a good counter-point. The ability to fire longbows or slings from inside a web is another.

After a day's consideration, I'm leaning toward allowing spellcasting from in a web, with possible disadvantage on targeted attacks. If this is what I'll do, I'll certainly bend the fiction to my will.

However, it's good to see my ruling in the moment is generally considered fair. Thank you for the help, all.

When rulings come up in future games, I'll post them here.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Thaumaturge]

I missed the Mouse's reply before my previous post.

Silence and web aren't comparable, though.

Well, we are comparing them, so...

Web lasts longer, and slows even those it doesn't restrain, and obscures vision, and requires a Strength check to even try to escape (or move at all).

Silence... makes things silent. While there are lots of circumstantial benefits, its only mechanical effects are penalties on Perception and canceling out vocal spells.

You're basically taking a second level spell and tacking on a whole extra 2nd-level effect if it prevents casting.

Web restricts physical movement. Silence restricts perception. In the proper circumstances both can be lethal. And, importantly, I let the cleric in this situation cast healing word. It only has a verbal component, so he could cast regardless of his level of restraint. Each of them (potentially) removes one type of component from the spellcaster's toolbox. Teleportation magic, not available in my scenario, has all verbal components, so one could flee a web.

All that said, I generally agree with your arguments.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Phoenix8008]

I know you're being sarcastic.

I'm not. I like these spell descriptions and this process.



I agree, though silence continues to be a good counter-point. The ability to fire longbows or slings from inside a web is another.

After a day's consideration, I'm leaning toward allowing spellcasting from in a web, with possible disadvantage on targeted attacks. If this is what I'll do, I'll certainly bend the fiction to my will.

However, it's good to see my ruling in the moment is generally considered fair. Thank you for the help, all.

When rulings come up in future games, I'll post them here.

Thaumaturge.

After reading the whole thread, I understand your initial ruling but also agree with where you've gotten to after the point and counterpoints offered by the masses. Too many fictional variables to totally rule out a caster being able to cast to some degree either in webs or in manacles (did they fall on top of the web, and maybe have an arm across their chest not get caught because it wasn't flung out? Maybe the character had big wide sleeves and the hands were up in the sleves and not entangled at all? Do the manacles allow enough motion to complete the spell?, etc, etc) I like the compromise you've gotten to and would support that. Now I just have to remember it when I eventually get to play and any similar situation comes up!

 

[Gargoyle]

I know you're being sarcastic.

I'm not. I like these spell descriptions and this process.



I agree, though silence continues to be a good counter-point. The ability to fire longbows or slings from inside a web is another.

After a day's consideration, I'm leaning toward allowing spellcasting from in a web, with possible disadvantage on targeted attacks. If this is what I'll do, I'll certainly bend the fiction to my will.

However, it's good to see my ruling in the moment is generally considered fair. Thank you for the help, all.

When rulings come up in future games, I'll post them here.

Thaumaturge.

This has been an educational thread for me. I found your initial ruling fair enough; I would have done the opposite and just allowed it without penalty. But on reading this thread, I think I was too lenient and I agree with your final conclusion. Thinking along the lines of "what's good for the non-casters is good for the casters" seems fair and reasonable. I'd also say that maybe a save against a spell with a somatic component cast by someone restrained should get advantage, since there are so many spells that don't have an attack roll. It's a bit wonky since I wouldn't be penalizing the person taking the action and rather giving a bonus to the defender, but it represents a poorly cast spell good enough I think and at the end of the day works to do what I'd want.

As much as I dislike having to worry about the components of each spell, since they are there, I feel some attention should be made to it. A bound caster who has prepared a spell that only has a vocal component should get some satisfaction from the outcome for instance. I always liked that aspect of the spell components in earlier editions.

 

[Pickles JG]

I know you're being sarcastic.

I'm not. I like these spell descriptions and this process.

Only partly.

I enjoy the discussion too in the same way I like making up characters or otherwise immersing myself in D&D.

I wish they could have squeezed the Area & Save into the summary part but now I have read through the most egregious spells from previous editions I am impressed with what they have put. These are the mind control spells Charm Person, Suggestion & Dominate. The illusions are pretty good too.