D&D 5E Does Dispel Magic work on Banishment?

Oofta said:

But if I say that the spell works slightly differently in my campaign then it does.

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Bearing in mind that one of the DM's jobs is to be fair, then it is wise to be seen to be fair.

If, at the start of the campaign, or as a player was about to choose banishment as one of his spells known, you told the player that you rule that the spell works differently in your campaign and this is how it works, then the player can choose to take the spell anyway or choose a different spell instead, and if he comes across another caster he knows what to do.

But if you said nothing about how you change this spell and then during a crucial combat change the way the spell works such that the player's solid 'win' turns into a 'lose'....

...it looks very much like you are cheating.

This is to be avoided.

thethain said:

BTW guys, Tasha's Hideous Laughter is the spell to force creatures to lose concentration. Level 1, only restriction is Int 3+. Much lower spell level cast than dispel or counterspell.

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That's a good one. The bard/wizard in my last campaign [MENTION=6801219]Lanliss[/MENTION] used it very effectively. In one instance he saved the party from a run-in with the Fish Pope.

Arial Black said:

Bearing in mind that one of the DM's jobs is to be fair, then it is wise to be seen to be fair.

If, at the start of the campaign, or as a player was about to choose banishment as one of his spells known, you told the player that you rule that the spell works differently in your campaign and this is how it works, then the player can choose to take the spell anyway or choose a different spell instead, and if he comes across another caster he knows what to do.

But if you said nothing about how you change this spell and then during a crucial combat change the way the spell works such that the player's solid 'win' turns into a 'lose'....

...it looks very much like you are cheating.

This is to be avoided.

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I'm trying to honor the OP's request to not shanghai this thread into another DM Empowerment topic.

I agree that one of the signs of a good DM is that sometimes the players get to take your carefully laid plans, shred them into little tiny pieces of confetti while breaking out the noisemakers and party hats. Let them have their fun. While they can bawahahahaha!

I agree with the majority that Dispel Magic would not be able to counter Banishment, unless possibly cast on the Banished creature itself. The way to 'dispel' a Banishment is to break the caster's concentration before the minute is up. I especially like the devious trick of imposing Tasha's Hideous Laughter on the caster, quite ingenious.

iserith said:

That's a good one. The bard/wizard in my last campaign [MENTION=6801219]Lanliss[/MENTION] used it very effectively. In one instance he saved the party from a run-in with the Fish Pope.

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then in another, used it again to stun him so our fighter could go in for the kill. Quite helpful, especially with a Portent to ensure the enemy fails its save.

Based on Sage Advice, I would actually say that you can dispel Banishment spell, provided it's done before the full minute of concentration is up. Here's the catch: you would have to be able to target the creature currently under banishment, which means that it's highly unlikely to ever actually happen. The little bit of info from Sage Advice that people should keep in mind is the following:

Whenever you wonder whether a spell's effects can be dispelled or suspended, you need to answer one question: is the spell’s duration instantaneous? If the answer is yes, there is nothing to dispel or suspend.

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That's on the end of page 13, and there's actually several questions before that asking about dispelling things. So anyway, yes you can dispel a Banishment spell if you can somehow target the creature that was banished, because that's the creature currently subjected to spell. Just like if you wanted to dispel a Wall of Fire, you don't do so by targeting the caster, but rather by dispelling the Wall of Fire.

Yeah, I'm going back and forth on this one.

If you could target casters to end all spells they have going, either ones they have cast on others, or ones they on themselves that have been cast by others, then that seems like such a good solution then there is no reason to ever target anything else.

When something comes out that is such a clear 'winner', I think twice about ruling that way. It then changes a spell from 'a powerful effect that gets a lot done but occasionally requires hard choices' to 'there are four ways to use this spell but anyone would be an idiot not to do it this way'.

In those cases, I lean towards disallowing it. Because it makes for a game with fewer permutations, fewer hard choices, fewer decisions, and fewer interesting wrinkles.

So, yeah - my bias is clear. I solve for what increases gameplay value over 'realism'.

BUT

That means this spell, unlike many other concentration spells, is not dispellable RAW, because the spell target / effect is 'elsewhere'. It's not a Faerie Fire or Spike Stones that's here, it's in some pocket dimension somewhere.

I'd normally say that makes it too powerful to be immune to dispelling, but if the spellcaster sticks around and tries to be effective with other spells, like blasting and cantrips, there are still other ways to stop it - disrupt their Concentration with damage or Tasha's Laughter or whatever. That works until they have a high Con and Combat Caster.

So, my bias is back in the other direction - this could make Banishment verging on overpowered too.

Ugh. I'm gonna have to think about it.

Was there ever a definitive answer from WOTC on this?

After a constructive appeal from my player, I allowed Dispel Magic to work on the caster today, for the stated reason that the effect is ongoing, and the caster's Concentration has to have something to do with it. That's my ruling as the DM for the moment, unless I learn otherwise.

orangefruitbat said:

We had a scenario come up yesterday and the group didn't really come to an agreement on the answer, nor could we find an answer online.

The PC wizard cast Banishment on a demon and successfully banished it to the Abyss. Then, knowing that 10 rounds of concentration were required to make it permanent, the wizard ducked out of sight from the rest of the battle. In the next round, an evil wizard (allied with the demon) cast Dispel Magic to remove the Banishment.

1) Is this legal? (i.e., does DM work on Banishment during the 10 rounds before it becomes permanent)

2) If the answer is Yes, where is the magical effect located that needs to be targeted? Is it the space where the banishment occurs or is it the person of the concentrating spell caster?

My thought was 1) No (the spell is basically akin to Teleport and cannot be dispelled) and 2) Even if the spell could be dispelled, the locus of effect is the person concentrating on the spell as there is nothing to effect in the space where the demon vacated.

Our DM thought 1) Yes (the spell is basically akin to an involuntary Gate that sucks things away) and 2) The locus of effect is the space where the (admittedly invisible and closed) Gate is located.

[Note: both of us agreed that Banishment could be countered by Counter Spell at the moment of casting, but that isn't the scenario here].

Curious on people's thoughts here.

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Yes, you can dispel Banishment, if you make the attempt before the full minute is up.

But since the target is the creature, this is impractical, since you need to visit it on its plane.

My advice is instead to hunt down the caster and damage him enough to either lose Concentration or consciousness outright.

This does not mean I can't see a "story banishment" type of story, where you say there's a gate, or a silver umbilical cord or whatever that leads to the banished creature, so you have something to dispel here and now.

But the bog-standard combat utility Banishment spell isn't practical to Dispel. Just apply some woopass to the caster instead. Or accept the trade off (where you've lost your banished ally, but where Team Hero just lost their Wizard).

Got about halfway through thread, so apologies if covered already.

I am thinking I'll allow Dispel Magic to work on a caster that's Concentrating on a spell effect. ie, you can target the spell effect OR the concentrating caster. (metaphysics: the caster has a thread of effect to the spell location)

IMHO, more dispels/counterspell would be a good thing.

Along those same lines, I've toyed with the idea that you can counterspell if you have an identical spell known and same spell slot ready as a reaction. Players were not down with that idea, so I haven't tried it, but I would like a more dynamic spellcaster 'game'. (Players were mostly afraid they'd burn slots too fast and enter the dreaded 15 min work day)

any way, /threadsidetrack