D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

I don't know if that's fundamentally a problem if you pushed harder to give magic items a separate identity from class abilities, but also the underlying causes and benefits for adventuring has kind of moved on from "get cool stuff" for a while now.

Yeah, I can't honestly think of the last time a party I was running for was doing the adventure for the sole purpose of loot. Prestige I still see a few times, but usually it is "we want to be heroes and help people" and anything they get is just a mechanical tool to help them be the heroes of the story.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Only one of those things (phasing) are something that requires some mythical, genre breaking martial to deal with, and even then. If multiple fantasy worlds can say silver affects ghosts, theres your effective answer.

Ez.

Point which has been missed is that martials deal with these throughout their 20 levels of experience.
Wizards, not so much and yet when they receive even a smidgen of it, it somehow needs to be called out as unfair (it seems).

The issue isn't casters merely being "countered". Countering something in a game doesn't deny that thing to someone.
Turning it off, however, does. Theres a difference between countering a blade with a shield, and just taking away the blade because reasons.

Are you against magic dampening zones/worlds or when someone sunders the arcane focus?

For some reason despite a whole lot of insistence on fairness, a lot of rhetoric in this topic is only applying it one way.

Not really as I reflected in my examples above. Fighters deal with challenges like these continuously throughout their 20 levels.

My position is, and always has been, that you have to approach this problem in a way that satisfies all the revelant partied involved. Not just Martials, Not just Mages, Not just DMs, not just Designers.

If you're neglecting the needs and wants of any of those, your solution is DOA.

High Level adventuring with casters needs to challenge not just the caster but the player.
If all you need is to cast fireball, the game is boring, IMO.
So, when a puzzle comes along that requires a spellcaster to rely on other things besides their magic, one should relish it, like the fighter has (all through the game).

 

[Chaosmancer]

Fun matters too; not everyone finds the convoluted design of casters in 5e to be all that fun.

And voila! There is the solution. Not everyone will find the design of the mythic martial fun, so not everyone will play them, Those that find them fun, will play them.

How is this a problem?

"I don't have a problem, ergo your problem doesn't exist".

How is "I rarely see threads about nerfing spells" in ANYWAY saying that I don't have a problem? Am I supposed to have a problem if I see something or not? Does the content of Enworld revolve around me?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ok now engage with what I said instead of skirting around it with quips.

You stated DnD was not a game designed to have high powered, high level casters. We have thus traced back the high powered, high level caster to 2nd edition. So, if after four editions and forty years of the same design, why do you think the game was not designed to have high powered, high level casters?

That WAS your position with the whole Tanks vs little old ladies solving mysteries conversation you joined. That the game wasn't designed for this. We have 40 years worth of "not being designed for this" so at what point do we acknowledge... it was actually designed for this?

 

[Emberashh]

Point which has been missed is that martials deal with these throughout their 20 levels of experience.
Wizards, not so much and yet when they receive even a smidgen of it, it somehow needs to be called out as unfair (it seems).

And my point was that none of those things requires chasing mages up the bad design tree.

Fairness has nothing to do with what Im talking about. Ffs ive been in this topic for ages now saying over and over and over to nerf mages into the ground.

Fighters deal with challenges like these continuously throughout their 20 levels

Those aren't challenges. Those are things that, insofar as 5e is concerned, Martials are denied any explicit capability to address. Thats not what a challenge is, and frankly its the same going the other way. A button to turn the problem off doesn't constitute challenge.

So, when a puzzle comes along that requires a spellcaster to rely on other things besides their magic, one should relish it, like the fighter has (all through the game).

You're very much disconnected from what people are talking about in this topic.

How is this a problem?

Because now you haven't solved the problem.

You're assuming that the mere existence of some incoherent and undefined blob of game design labelled a "mythic martial" is going to universally liked by anyone and everyone who has an issue with how Martials in 5e function.

My point is, and always has been, that that assumption is faulty.

Does the content of Enworld revolve around me?

Enworld isn't the only place people interested in DND congregate.

You stated DnD was not a game designed to have high powered, high level casters. We have thus traced back the high powered, high level caster to 2nd edition. So, if after four editions and forty years of the same design, why do you think the game was not designed to have high powered, high level casters?

That WAS your position with the whole Tanks vs little old ladies solving mysteries conversation you joined. That the game wasn't designed for this. We have 40 years worth of "not being designed for this" so at what point do we acknowledge... it was actually designed for this?

You're still skirting around what I said.

 

[Minigiant]

You are completely wrong.

Firstly, you skipped an option. "Your DM running flying demons and never giving your party winged boots for your warriors, instead relying on ranged casters to deal with them" That is a completely legitimate answer, and one that is assumed. How do I know?

1) The vast majority of cantrips are ranged, and ranged weapons exist.
2) Low level flying enemies exist. (Harpies, Griffons, Hippogriffs, ect)
2a) None (or very few) of these low level flying enemies have ranged attacks greater than the range of the most common cantrips and ranged weapons, about 60 ft.
3) The DMG specifically calls this out, stating "Flying Monster: Increase the monster's effective Armor Class by 2 (not its actual AC) if it can fly and deal damage at range and if its expected challenge rating is 10 or lower (higher-level characters have a greater ability to deal with flying creatures)."

Flight ONLY increases the threat of a monster if it can fly, if it can attack at range AND if it is below CR 10

Now, you could take all of this and say that clearly the DM should stop using flying monsters AFTER a certain level, but that's actually false. BEFORE a certain level, the flight tools you are talking about are not presumed.

We can even take this a step further. We know that the Boots of Flying are a Major Uncommon Magic item, and that they are on Table F. We know that Xanathar's states you should only expect to get 2 major uncommon items for a party of levels 1 to 4. We also know that Table F is only rolled on for Treasure Hoards, and has a range of 86 to 97 on the chart for 0 - 4. Meaning? It isn't likely. Especially compared to the 123 monsters of CR 4 or lower that have a flight speed.


So, no. The assumption isn't that the Warriors will get flight items before dealing with any flying enemies. The assumption is that the warriors will used ranged weapons, and the spellcasters who have ranged options will help deal with flying enemies.

Now, maybe you could make the argument that past level 10 they expect warriors to gain access to flight items.... except what happens at level 5? At level 5, the majority of full-casters who have ranged options and don't NEED it... gain access to a spell that grants flight to someone else. Any by level 10, they can cast that spell on up to three people. When the expected party size is 4.

So, AGAIN, there was no assumption or design intent that stated the party will have access to magical items. They were given to be boons and bonuses that you MIGHT have, not something that is guaranteed.

You are just restating my point.
That's option 3. The casters using their slots to cast of the warriors to help deal with flying enemies.

Again this a high level discussion. At high levels, monsters have too much HP and deal too much damage for your warriors to sit out.

And like I stated before... the 5e designers didn't not and still don't design warriors to have a good melee and ranged attack.
One of the biggest boons of Hexadins and the saving grace of early 5e rangers was having a strong melee attack and ranged attack at higher levels.

Casting fly every or every other fight isn't cheap.

The 5e designers can say all they want. When 5e was released. Rage didn't work with thrown weapons. Nor Reckless attack. There was no feat to get archery fighting style. Thrown weapon style didn't exist. There were no Ki-dokens, And a huge chunk of monsters at the higher levels fly, teleport, or have inhuman speeds. And a lot of HP. And all their adventures handed the magic items out.

The designers assumed that at high levels, the DM would give the warriors advanced movement, let the casters cast advanced movement, or not use a large noticeable chunk of the MM.

The designers assumed the DM hands out magic items. They just gave an out if the DM did not.

If you take magic items out of high level 5e play, you either have to change

1. the monsters
2. the encounter design
3. or the race/class options

 

[AnotherGuy]

Ffs ive been in this topic for ages now saying over and over and over to nerf mages into the ground.

My position is not that unsimilar - I said that the issue is not so much the fighter IMO but the magic system.
I think there are not enough levers, but I can fully accept that as a me problem.

You're very much disconnected from what people are talking about in this topic.

I entered the conversation when you said at some point you have to take away toys for a high level spellcasting party.
I'm saying that is par for the course in a game like D&D which should have anti-magic zones, worlds where magic or the Weave do not exist, worlds where gods are absent, worlds where magic is dampened or twisted, or where too much magic corrupts one physically, or worlds where the casting of magic is fuelled by life (thus hurting yourself or allies), where environments limit the type of spells being safe to cast, where the casting of magic identifies you or allows one to track you...etc
That's normal and trope-y for sword and sorcery stories.
Your comment and subsequent comments seemed to crap on that idea - that's when I entered the conversation!

 

[Hussar]

You are just restating my point.
That's option 3. The casters using their slots to cast of the warriors to help deal with flying enemies.

Again this a high level discussion. At high levels, monsters have too much HP and deal too much damage for your warriors to sit out.

And like I stated before... the 5e designers didn't not and still don't design warriors to have a good melee and ranged attack.
One of the biggest boons of Hexadins and the saving grace of early 5e rangers was having a strong melee attack and ranged attack at higher levels.

Casting fly every or every other fight isn't cheap.

The 5e designers can say all they want. When 5e was released. Rage didn't work with thrown weapons. Nor Reckless attack. There was no feat to get archery fighting style. Thrown weapon style didn't exist. There were no Ki-dokens, And a huge chunk of monsters at the higher levels fly, teleport, or have inhuman speeds. And a lot of HP. And all their adventures handed the magic items out.

The designers assumed that at high levels, the DM would give the warriors advanced movement, let the casters cast advanced movement, or not use a large noticeable chunk of the MM.

The designers assumed the DM hands out magic items. They just gave an out if the DM did not.

If you take magic items out of high level 5e play, you either have to change

1. the monsters
2. the encounter design
3. or the race/class options

Umm, not sure what adventures you'Re talking about.

I'm most of the way through the Dragonqueen adventure and we've found a couple of magic weapons and that's about it.

Giants adventure? Very few magic items and no movement items that I recall. Any that we got we had to buy and had very little down time to do it.

Saltmarsh? No movement items as I recall and precious few magic items at all.

I just ran Candlekeep. There were almost no magic items at all in the entire module.

So, what adventures are handing out all these items? I sure didn't play them.

 

[Minigiant]

Umm, not sure what adventures you'Re talking about.

I'm most of the way through the Dragonqueen adventure and we've found a couple of magic weapons and that's about it.

Giants adventure? Very few magic items and no movement items that I recall. Any that we got we had to buy and had very little down time to do it.

Saltmarsh? No movement items as I recall and precious few magic items at all.

I just ran Candlekeep. There were almost no magic items at all in the entire module.

So, what adventures are handing out all these items? I sure didn't play them.

Candlekeep is all one shots. They aren't full adventures.

The other adventures had some magic items. And low level.

My point was that the designers just took magic items out the math. They didn't really expect many people to play high level without magic items. That's why they put little effort into support of high level magic itemless play.

Heck, they didn't support high level play much at all.

 

[Tonguez]

Of course not.
Now...
Which level does Megor have to be in order to do this at will?

Casters get Wall of Stone at level 9 so no reason why Megor cant do his Defensive Bulwark at the same level. The secondary attack I’d do as a special move ”Blow Out” - Megor can wreck a solid object and cause debris to blow out x-ft in a y cone. Anyone hit by the debris takes damage