D&D 5E I think the era of 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons had it right. (not talking about the rules).
Felicitas27
First Post
Speaking in a broader marketing sense rather than as someone who played 4e (so I don't have an personal opinion either way about 4e vs. 5e and the quality of the content) -- you've hit the nail on the head with your use of the word "predatory".
I know from experience that too much of this kind of thing can and does drive consumers away from your product. And while I never worked in the gaming industry, I know a little about it. D&D is, as we know, the great-grandfather of a lot of games currently on the market, so it's a brand that needs to be handled with respect. The old "money money money money" marketing strategy is actually analogous to online so-called "F2P" games that will give interested parties a small taste of their product -- but make us pay up (sometimes big-time) if we want more. It can really cheapen a brand and it absolutely turns people off.
However, depending on the goals of the game publisher, this strat can also be a money-maker. The publisher can look at the balance sheets and decide for the long term that the game is headed for the garbage bin, so they might as well wring as much cash as they can from the brand for as long as they can. They keep the game going, double-down on the "value-added" purchases that are constantly dangled even in front of those who continue to subscribe, and often keep rolling along for years.
That WotC switched directions from this kind of strategy makes me think that they decided that the D&D brand has excellent long-term potential as a AAA ("Triple A") game that finally needs promotion among other giants of gaming.
Their strat now is roughly analogous to a subscription-based Triple A online game such as World of Warcraft rather than a F2P game -- they are providing core content for free for all and releasing higher-quality (production-wise, anyway; you guys can debate the content quality) on a slower but regular schedule. They are allowing 3rd parties to provide services such as VTTs, just like Blizzard lets add-on developers modify the WoW UI. And I could go on.
They are also reaching out to other channels such as Twitch streamers to make sure that D&D starts getting exposure to young people. This is making some people uncomfortable, but it is extremely important to the life of the game. And I think it is not a useless gesture. Online gaming is fun, but it can be very stressful for many people. Think of how many young adults have now grown up knowing nothing but the internet and console gaming. Reaching this audience goes far beyond wanting to make money.
I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes with this post. This topic is kind of near to my heart.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Theres nothing predatory about it. They screwed up by putting out so much content in bland crunch books like the x power books, but the subscription was an excellent model they should bring back, IMO.
[MENTION=6860994]Felicitas27[/MENTION] I think you're lumping a lot of disparate games together unfairly, there.
Games like DDO and NEVERWINTER online are definately not on a "this game isn't going anywhere, might as well scam people out of money" model, and I'd say that few well known MMO's are. In fact, the idea that triple A and f2p are incompatible is just flatly wrong. Neverwinter Online is a triple A f2p game, as is SW:TOR.
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Jester David
Hero
As [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] said, a book every two-months didn't mean lots of extra profit as each one only generated a small amount of income. They're still releasing three books per year after all, only focusing 2/3rds of their effort on DMs and producing non-crunch.
The other catch is that regardless of the release rate, you can only release a finite number of desirable books. There are a few collectors that will buy everything, but many people will stop buying every release and just buy every second, or third, or one that interests them. Or just buy until they hit saturation and then stop.
So if you're only ever really going to see six big hardcover books before you hit "bloat", you can either sell one every three months and complete the game after a year-and-a-half. Or you can sell one every six months and stretch things out to three years. Or you can release one a year and expand the lifespan of the books for six years.
I often compare this to board game expansions, which is not an inapt comparison. D&D is a game and splatbooks are basically add-ons for a board game. You can play a simple board game with two or three expansions, but not matter how many you own you typically only play with one or two at a time. And most people will stop with only one or two. And only the most dedicated players (who memorize the rules) will be able play with all the expansions without things getting too slowed down. Unless you're playing the same board game weekly, you're never going to sufficiently play it all; and after a while you're quickly buying content more to own than to play.
D&D isn't exactly like that, as splatbooks don't necessarily increase the complexity. But just with the content they've already released there's enough options for multiple 1-20 campaigns. A single accessory will likely more than double that. After that, people end up buying $50 for a single subclass or feature, which becomes ridiculous.
To Corpsetaker's other points, I'll submit that IMO it was even better in 2000-2003, which saw a character gen released with the new game, plenty more released via the OGL, (some very complete ones before WotC cracked down on all the IP violations) , and tons of support both by WotC and third parties - talk about your second Golden Ages.
But I do think WotC is doing SOMETHING right, because D&D is more in the mainstream consciousness than it has been in 30+ years - and you don't even have to be a SATANIST to play it, now!
You mean I sacrificed those virgins for nothing?!?
hawkeyefan
Legend
I felt like they were producing content just to produce content. I had a DDI subscription, for the character builder more than anything else, but again, ongoing fees for access to that material seems a bit questionable in retrospect. I have HeroLab now, which I got for far less than the yearly subscription to DDI, and which has a flat one time rate. HeroLab also allows for modification, so I can add in anything I want. So it'S a superior product, in my opinion, for far less.
And I think that goes a long way to the success of the new edition. WotC is focusing on the game and the game material, and allowing 3rd parties to provide the ancillary services. Almost everything that the OP called for is available now...plenty of virtual table tops, some of which are free, some have costs but had the added benefit of having the adventures available for purchase; character builder programs like HeroLab that are superior to the DDI version; and for the other items, I feel like the Dragon+ magazine combined with the Unearthed Arcanna releases and the DMsGuild is an effective replacement for the online magazines. When it comes to content, again the DMsGuild and more importantly 3rd party products are there.
So I just see the original request is for these things to all be "in-house", and as such it just seems like a pretty flimsy criticism. All of them exist in this edition, in better ways. Which frees the WotC crew up to focus on what they should.
hawkeyefan
Legend
Lots of extra profit? Nope, it certainly did not...but I don't think that was the hope. But I am looking at it from the other side...the cost to the folks who played the game and wanted the products. The cost to buy every WotC product on the part of the consumer was far far higher in 4E than 5E.
Instead of selling a main product to a massive audience, they wound up seeking g to a smaller audience, and made up for the gap by producing as much material as they possibly could. The 4E approach meant that they needed to keep producing large amounts of new material in order to get the established audience to continue spending.
So, while I get that this approach ultimately failed, I don't think that was their intention. I think that they were looking at the MMOmarket and how folks were willing to shell out a monthly fee to play a game, and they tried to adapt that approach to tabletop. But I think that they failed to see that the subscription based model of MMO was already on its way out.
Felicitas27
First Post
I was speaking broadly there about how marketing strategies work. Obviously, there are specific examples that we can debate all day.
The D&D games are fine. SWOTR went through a period where it was among the worst kind of rip-off trash in the industry, but it has finally settled in to something playable. Lord of the Rings Online is actually the specific game I had in mind; IMO it is shameful how Warner has treated that brand.
I think somewhere inbetween is ideal.
Yes 2e, 3e and 4e went over board on releasing stuff, but 5e has hit the other extreme.
5e is refusing to release what I feel are essential books like FRCG. They at minium should release a campaign setting guide per year.
As for 4e to my knowledge contray to popular belief it was profitable, perhaps even more so then 3e/3.5e. Its just didn't have a high enough profit to expense ratio to appease the bean counters.
I say this as someone who prefers 5e.
I honestly believe the market is big enough to sustain a moderate increase in books, especially setting books like FRCG, which people made clear that they wanted.
As for 5e being a golden age, when 5e was being playtested and then released and all the talk about of the Sundering in FR, it felt like it was going to be. Then a tiny trinkle of releases, a some of which were questionable, the refusal to release a FRCG, and the last straw ending the novel line. 5e was the best D&D system every, but its been down hill ever since, for the most part through no fault of the writers and artists, but rather corporate politics.
Its been a huge let down, my PHB is collecting dust as I await a 5e FRCG.
So now I find my self hating WotC and Hasbro, and wishing they would sell D&D to better company or licience it out.
I've largely moved onto the Chronicles of Darkness 2e (formily known as New World of Darkness), which has released wonderful settings such as Vampire Reqiuem 2e, Mage 2e, Werewolf 2e, Promethean 2e, and hopefully by spring at the latest Changeling 2e (which from the playtest documents is one of the coolest games ever).
Oh and I just donated to Scion, which will gain me as PDFs Scion: Origins, Scion: Hero, Scion: Companion, Scion: Jumpstart, Scion: Premade Characters, Scion: Interactive Audio Drama (not a PDF), Scion: Anthology for all of $20.
This could have been WotC's money, but instead its Onyx Path's profits.
I have no interest in the adventures until I get a FRCG. Having read SCAG in Chapters I found it too anmeniac to actually be worth purchasing, especially for the price. I may get Volo's Guide to Monsters, but only because I can get it for $35 +tax on Chapters website. Undecided still.
And with the novels line ended and with no FRCG in site, I see no purpose in doing further business with WotC after Volo's Guide to Monsters. 5e started with such bright hopes and for me, has ended with sad bitterness.
Having loved the 5e PHB I never thought I'd look at 4e as almost the good old days.
Yes 2e, 3e and 4e went over board on releasing stuff, but 5e has hit the other extreme.
5e is refusing to release what I feel are essential books like FRCG. They at minium should release a campaign setting guide per year.
As for 4e to my knowledge contray to popular belief it was profitable, perhaps even more so then 3e/3.5e. Its just didn't have a high enough profit to expense ratio to appease the bean counters.
I say this as someone who prefers 5e.
I honestly believe the market is big enough to sustain a moderate increase in books, especially setting books like FRCG, which people made clear that they wanted.
As for 5e being a golden age, when 5e was being playtested and then released and all the talk about of the Sundering in FR, it felt like it was going to be. Then a tiny trinkle of releases, a some of which were questionable, the refusal to release a FRCG, and the last straw ending the novel line. 5e was the best D&D system every, but its been down hill ever since, for the most part through no fault of the writers and artists, but rather corporate politics.
Its been a huge let down, my PHB is collecting dust as I await a 5e FRCG.
So now I find my self hating WotC and Hasbro, and wishing they would sell D&D to better company or licience it out.
I've largely moved onto the Chronicles of Darkness 2e (formily known as New World of Darkness), which has released wonderful settings such as Vampire Reqiuem 2e, Mage 2e, Werewolf 2e, Promethean 2e, and hopefully by spring at the latest Changeling 2e (which from the playtest documents is one of the coolest games ever).
Oh and I just donated to Scion, which will gain me as PDFs Scion: Origins, Scion: Hero, Scion: Companion, Scion: Jumpstart, Scion: Premade Characters, Scion: Interactive Audio Drama (not a PDF), Scion: Anthology for all of $20.
This could have been WotC's money, but instead its Onyx Path's profits.
I have no interest in the adventures until I get a FRCG. Having read SCAG in Chapters I found it too anmeniac to actually be worth purchasing, especially for the price. I may get Volo's Guide to Monsters, but only because I can get it for $35 +tax on Chapters website. Undecided still.
And with the novels line ended and with no FRCG in site, I see no purpose in doing further business with WotC after Volo's Guide to Monsters. 5e started with such bright hopes and for me, has ended with sad bitterness.
Having loved the 5e PHB I never thought I'd look at 4e as almost the good old days.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I haven't played LOTRO in a while, but I can't think of anything wrong or ripoff-ish about it? I played before warner bros purchased Turbine to get lotro, and played a few years ago. Maybe I just didn't notice something hey changed, beyond just...going f2p.
anyway, my point was also broad, just using examples.
I don't think there was anything predatory about the 4e business model, nor do I think the strategy was "wrong every last buck out of these rubes while we can".
A slower release schedule would have benefited them, because just DDI had more content than most groups could use, but I'd gladly pay 10$ a month again for DDi if they had regular monthly content (preferably mostly DM, flavor, and UA content, with a slow stickler of player crunch as UA content is iterated and finished) and consolidated tools. I don't care about in house, I want a suite of tools that I access in one place, with one account, that all syncs and updates with new official content.
Hire someone, buy someone's tools, whatever, I couldn't care less. I'm not gonna buy any of the license supported VTTs out there, because all they do is VTT, and I liken one of them as much as I liked the beta 4e vtt. And bc a vtt isn't worth much money on its own, to me. I'd be more excited about a character and monster visualizer built into the CB and monster/encounter builder tools, frankly.
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