Oofta
Legend
Or you could just ... I don't know ... copy and paste. Because post 168 by my count is not your post.
D&D 5E What Rules do you see people mistake or misapply?
Or you could just ... I don't know ... copy and paste. Because post 168 by my count is not your post.
It goes to 199 by my count.
Haha. I only wish [MENTION=6801204]Satyrn[/MENTION] had been here a few minutes ago so I could have bet $50 you were going to pull that excuse...
Ya know, I miss the days of people actually being interested in having a conversation...
Here:
Oofta
Legend
I'm saying - again - that the DM decides when something could be detected.
There are too many variables to come up with hard and fast rules. But in the specific scenario, it was a decent sized room, no breeze, lots of furniture, no dust to speak of and enough noise to mask any incidental noise. Oh, and there was a gnomish choir singing a song because the statue was a "reward" for the heroes (long story).
But the basic principle doesn't change. The rules don't state that the only way someone can go undetected is to take a hide action, therefore it is up to the DM to decide when something can be detected.
Flamestrike
Legend
Exactly. Specifically the hide action.
In order to use it you must first be on unseen. Such as by being behind total cover, or by being in heavy obscurement (the latter of which invisibility counts as).
Then to represent the time spent being quiet, being still and concealing your presence (Instead of say... attacking someone or casting a spell) you take the Hide action and roll your stealth vs the passive perception of everyone nearby.
If you succeed on your stealth check, you are now hidden (Unseen and Unheard). Unless and until someone takes the Search action and successfully rolls their perception score over your stealth result, or you otherwise reveal yourself by attacking or casting a spell or similar, they will only be able to attack you if they can successfully guess where you are.
It's impossible to cast hold monster on an invisible creature.
But supposing you could, this would be one of the corner cases that Jeremy Crawford discussed in his article where the DM would simply set a DC.
Same deal if the invisible creature was also in the radius of a silence spell. It could still be noticed (Footprints in mud or dirt or snow or the carpet, Splashing in puddles as it moves or long grass and branches being moved back etc) but that is a corner case subject to the DM.
The rule for invisible creatures is clear. Invisibility does not make you hidden in and of itself. You also need to take the Hide action if you want to be quiet and not make any noise. If you don't take the hide action and are invisible, then the assumption in the game is that creatures can roughly know your general location with sufficient precision to launch an attack at disadvantage. They can't make attacks of opportunity against you, they can't target you with most spells, and many class features can't be used on you either.
The rule is not hard. It still boggles my mind that so many people have so many problems with it.
Pathkeeper24601
First Post
Please feel free to provide the rules that state something goes undetected without making a Stealth check to Hide.
The wording in the Players Handbook seems to suggest that not being hidden (detectable) is the default. Quotes come from the only basic Players Handbook.
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." So not hiding is the default assumption until the DM determines circumstances are appropriate. Here I would grant that some DM's can be far more liberal in defining appropriate circumstances.
"An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet." Once again, the invisible creature can try to hide, but isn't automatically hidden. The definition of the Invisible status only has unseen as part of its description and doesn't include undetectable. At the very least, the invisible creatures status is uncertain unless circumstances (such as using Stealth to Hide).
Even looking from the perspective of being considered in heavy securement, that at the very worst could add the Blinded [toward Invisible creature] condition that still only imposes disadvantage and doesn't automatically include not knowing which 5' square a creature is in.
Now, show me the rules that would suggest an invisible creature is automatically invisible as a base assumption unless the DM chooses otherwise.
Flamestrike
Legend
An invisible potted plant doesn't need to use the stealth skill in order to be silent. Objects don't have skills; only creatures do.
For an invisible object in a room, the dungeon master simply sets a perception DC. Player characters might notice dead leaves from the potted plant, or the marks of it in the dirt.
An invisible creature sets its own perception DC.
It's not stupid. Again going back to your example of the invisible stalker, it has +10 to stealth. Odds are its going to generate at least a 20 on its stealth check, and if it's had sufficient time probably generate much more (It's been in the room long enough to probably get advantage on its stealth check, setting a passive perception DC of 25 to notice it).
Presuming a player character that entered the room has a passive perception of 25, he probably notices air swirling around suspiciously in the corner, and an ever so faint shimmering.The other player characters aren't going to notice it unless they spend their entire round taking the search action and crack a DC25 Perception check.
It almost certainly attacks with surprise, flies down and attacks a player character who is surprised, and then flies away (It is immune to attacks of opportunity remember) and then within a few seconds, the player characters again lose track of where it is (the following round it takes the hide action and rolls its stealth at +10).
Rinse and repeat.
If it was an invisible creature in full plate mail and with a dexterity of 8 on the other hand, Its skill is -1 and it rolls with disadvantage. You are hearing that clumsy fool in full plate from several metres away, and noticing his heavy boot prints leaving trails in the mud no worries at all.
But even the invisible idiot in full plate clanking like a small factory, is immune to Hex, Hold person, Hunters mark, Power word kill, Dominate person, Counterspell, Magic missile, Imprisonment, Haste, Harm... And the list goes on. Your vengeance paladin can't declare your third level Channel Divinity against him. You can't make attacks of opportunity at all against him either. Your attacks against him are all at disadvantage. His attacks at you are all at advantage. He can spend a few seconds when ever he wants to take the hide action, and if successful you can't attack him at all, and have to guess his location.
The only people who think it is stupid, don't understand the rule.
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Flamestrike
Legend
They kind of do. The hide action in the combat section. It details the process for becoming hidden while unseen.
The attack action details how to belt something with a sword. The cast a spell action details how to cast a spell.
Jeremy Crawford was clear if you wish to become hidden you must take the hide action (as a general rule). Of course there may be situations where the invisible creature is 100 feet away and in the radius of silence spell. Then it is up to the Dungeon Master to intervene; in corner cases.
In a standard dungeon encounter (40 x 40 stone room, 10 foot wide corridor leading off to the South etc) featuring an invisible creature (or any other creature that is unseen such as by being in total cover or in heavy obscurement), that creature is not hidden unless and until it takes the hide action as a general rule.
To be hidden you must be both unseen and unheard and all the signs of your presence must also be concealed (footsteps splashing in puddles as you run, or leaving muddy footprints or tracks in the snow, or pushing aside long grass or branches as you move etc).
Don't get me wrong; there are definitely corner cases where a Dungeon Master is required to intervene. But the general rule is invisibility does not equal being hidden. It just fulfills the 'unseen' requirement that allows one to take the Hide action.
It's successful use of the Hide action while unseen that makes one hidden.
Those are the rules for hiding. Become unseen, and then take the Hide action. Successfully roll higher on your stealth check than the passive perception of nearby observers.
Oofta
Legend
While I accept that 2+2=4, that does not mean that 2+2 are the only two numbers that will add to 4.
Do you (A) automatically know where every creature on the planet is? Of course not. Do you know (B) where every insect is when you are taking a walk in the woods? Probably not. Do I know where a mosquito is if it bites me? Quite likely.
Assuming we agree with A and B, then we're just talking about details, and when it's reasonable for someone to detect other creatures. Invisible or not.
I agree 100% that it's largely up to the DM to decide when someone could be reasonably detected.
Like the old joke
Man approaches a beautiful woman and asks "Would you sleep with me for 10 million dollars?"
The woman thinks about it for a moment and hesitantly replies "Sure."
The man responds "Would you sleep with me for 10 dollars?"
The woman replies angrily "What kind of woman do you take me for!"
The man responds "We've already established that, now we're just negotiating price."
We're just negotiating price here, and what that price is will vary by DM.
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
Not quite. It details the process for a creature becoming hidden while unseen in combat.
It says nothing about the other two pillars of the game.
It says nothing about objects (which can't take actions).
