Eleanore's Request (Fantasy MnM 3E, Recruiting)

[MENTION=6690219]SuperZero[/MENTION], while on rule questions, what would you think of this version of Impressive?

Impressive (Teamwork, Perception Ranged, Limited (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion, Stealth), Removable (armor), 1PP; Skill Mastery (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion), Removable (Armor), 2PP)) 3PP

This would represent him distracting people's attention (stealth) or underlining one of his fellows point by looking impressive in the background. Much cheaper than the Weaken Awareness version too.

Do you allow using a different skill then the primary one in Team Checks or would that require an extra? I'm thinking specifically about him helping a Stealth roll by distracting the ones the rest of the group is sneaking past. Obviously Deception or Intimidate would make a lot more sense here as an aid roll than Stealth...

BF : Ah I see.
Ordinarily I wouldn't try anything like that, I was just using that as an example of how it could be done, obviously I'd have to work out the details with superzero. and actually I had been more considering calling it 'dragon magic' and having the basics behind his powers be that he has more magical power than most dragons of his age because he's found a way to actually channel his 'draconic power' into his magic.
And you're right, it WILL be almost entirely irrelevant until and unless superzero decides to bring it into play, at which point it we will have decided how it happens, and after which we'll need to figure out the direction of the character: Whether he retires or I spend points to gain the revealed powers.

Darwin: Yes it's possible but unneccesary. in an array, any dynamic powers can be used with each other so if, for example you had:
MAGIC array:
ranged damage rank 6 (12 points)
AE: (Weather control)Enviroment (cold) rank 6 (12 p) -Dynamic
AE: (weather control) Enviroment (Hot) rank 6 (12p) -Dynamic

This array for example would cost a total of 16 points: 12 for the base damage power, and 2 extra for each dynamic power. You could use either A: the ranged damage power, or B: Any combination of the two dynamic(weather control) powers that adds up to 12 points: So, you could use rank 6 cold control, or rank 3 of each, or rank 1 cold rank 5 hot, etc. Making an alternate effect OF an alternate effect is only really useful if you're using nested dynamic arrays, which is complicated and a bit exploitative. There's almost no reason to do it, everything you want can easily be done just with standard dynamic AE's.

[MENTION=63746]Binder Fred[/MENTION]:
Unless I'm missing something, his Close Attack bonus is only +5--Fighting 3 and 2 ranks of the Close Attack Advantage.
Reducing his speed is really on a 1-point Quirk. It's basically a negative rank in Speed.
Not Against Animals is probably more of a Quirk, too, although it depends on how broadly you mean animals. Is that anything that's not humanoid, or just mostly-ordinary Int -5 or -4 animals?
An even rank in Impervious doesn't do much, so you could save a point there.
I thought the Impressive power was mean to go with the armor? That would mean that you should total the points before applying Removable.
Dungeon Smasher breaks the PL cap.
I'm not sure how you're getting your costs for the attack array. I see what you're trying to do with only some powers being Removable, but I think the sword and quills still come to 6.. ?

As for your other version of the Impressive power... Looks like it should be 4 points rather than 3.
I think Enhanced Advantage: Fascinate may cover most of what you want for 1 point.
And if it's just adding some points to allies' skills, Affects Others (Only) Enhanced Skills might also work.

[MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]:
Personally for a force mage, I'd probably tend to give some Enhanced Dodge/Parry along with the Protection--as likely to deflect the attack away as to dampen it. But I have no problem with your way.
Such a character's fights might be a little shorter, but he can bring his enemies down just a little faster and they can do the same to him. So it balances out.

[MENTION=33]DarwinofMind[/MENTION]:
I'm not quite sure what you mean. As Jemal says, you can add Dynamic to any or all effects in an array (although it's meaningless unless you pick at least two). It doesn't really make any difference what the base power is, beyond it being the most expensive one in points.


@ All:
I'm thinking I would roll initiative checks, although if you see a fight coming (or you're the one starting it) you can go ahead and roll your own.
And then we'd use group initiative. I would average the NPCs' rolls, PCs who beat them could act first, and then NPCs and PCs in a cycle.
I would probably roll other reactions for you, like Perception and Insight.
I'm less sure about resistance checks... Me rolling them for PCs probably isn't as big a deal, but it would also speed things up if the players know the villains' defenses. But that has the downside of the players knowing the NPCs' defenses.
Would you want that?


Y'know, I probably shouldn't be trying to write at this time of night. If any of that doesn't make any sense, just let me know.

I don't have a problem with any of that.

Yeah, a deflection field enhancing dodge/parry would be basically the same thing, but with a max tradeoff of 4 I could only have a dodge/parry of 10, which would be reduced back to 6 after the all-out attack. The toughness method allows for the 'great power but big weakness' and forcefields can be descriptively good as either defense or toughness bonuses.
And yes, he's a 'quick fight' kinda guy.. he doesn't like to get into long drawn out slugging matches.

As far as the rest, I've no problem with you rolling that stuff. I wouldn't necessarily suggest letting the players know the villains defenses though - there's a reason the "Assessment" Advantage requires a check, and it's because knowing your opponents stats is beneficial to helping you decide your strategy. It's why I always take it with any of my intelligent/strategic characters.

Sorry. Played a fair amount of 2E, but first time building a 3E character.

SuperZero said:

his Close Attack bonus is only +5--Fighting 3 and 2 ranks of the Close Attack Advantage.

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Corrected (Dropped Agi by one to raise Fighting by one).

SuperZero said:

Reducing his speed is really on a 1-point Quirk. It's basically a negative rank in Speed.

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Fair enough. Any suggestions on what you would consider Limiting with a "Heavy" theme on the armor?

SuperZero said:

I'm not sure how you're getting your costs for the attack array. I see what you're trying to do with only some powers being Removable, but I think the sword and quills still come to 6.. ? Dungeon Smasher breaks the PL cap.

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Corrected. The array is now a 6PP base array with 3 alternate powers. Also added a linked Leaping-as-Attack to the Line Drive power to more accuretly reflect the in-game effect I had in mind (now he *does* actually toss the grabbed object/person down the Line ).

SuperZero said:

As for your other version of the Impressive power... Looks like it should be 4 points rather than 3.

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Hm, how so?

Teamwork (1 PP)
Perception Ranged (+1PP/ Rank)
Limited (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion, Stealth) (-1PP/ Rank)
Removable (No effect with a base cost of 1, but it belongs there so I put it in anyway)
Total = 1 PP

Skill Mastery (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion) (3 PP)
Removable (Armor) (-1 PP/5 points, rounding up to the nearest 5 like in the example on p.149 = -1 PP)
Total = 2 PP

Grand Total = 3PP?

SuperZero said:

I think Enhanced Advantage: Fascinate may cover most of what you want for 1 point.

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Would work very well for aiding Stealth, true, not so much for aiding in Persuassion, Intimidate or Deception (if I read the Fascinate entry right, the target(s) would be completely unaware the other characters are attempting these things whille they're entranced, right?). Is there a problem with the version I presented (other than the cost discussion above)? I'm rather pleased with it, actually. *Very* pleased if you allow him to use Intimidate or Deception distractions to help in Stealth attempts.

Also added the Diehard Advantage to him with one of the extra points saved from the new version of Impressive (other two went to the Attack Array).

EDIT= Hm, could I Limit his Investigation skill to just Search plus Gather Information(criminals)? Gather evidence, Analyse evidence, Surveillance and talking to law-abiding citizens are not really his thing, at all for the first three.

SuperZero said:

I'm less sure about resistance checks... Me rolling them for PCs probably isn't as big a deal, but it would also speed things up if the players know the villains' defenses. But that has the downside of the players knowing the NPCs' defenses.

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No problems with any of the above. I don't mind not knowing enemy stats as it doesn't slow down combat that much and it keeps us on our toes. Some indications in the round description are usually enough ("Not even close", "Almost had him that time", "You hit him but his armored hide is a lot tougher than it looks", etc).

If you want to go with 'heavy, bulky armour' I may have a suggestion for you.
Have the armour grant you 2 ranks of growth. +2 str + 2 stm +1 intimidate +1 mass -2 stealth -1 dodge/parry, and maybe still add that 1 point '-1 speed' quirk for a total cost of 3 points.
You could drop your base str/stam by 2 points each saving you EIGHT points, but then you'd have to buy up your dodge/parry again for 2 points, so you'd basically be saving 3 points. And that's not accounting for the 'removable' discount.

As for the impressive power, here's an example of another thing you could do with it.
For the bonuses you could use Enhanced traits with the Affects others Advantage, such as Attractive (Affects Others+1) for 2 points, to show that the armour is so impressive it makes everybody around you look good, or make your skill mastery an Enhanced advantage so you can add affects others to it - people around you look so impressive they can just take their time making their points.
also the perception range on teamwork seems unnecessary.

How's this for the armour:
Impressive Armour: Growth 2, Enhanced Advantage: Fascinate, Enhanced Advantage: Teamwork (Subtle, Limited: Interaction skills), Enhanced Advantage: Skill Mastery (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion) *Affects Others*, Enhanced Advantage: Attractive *Affects Others*, Reduced Speed 1; Removable
Cost would be 4(Growth)+1(Fascinate)+1(Teamwork)+6(Skill Mastery)+2(Attractive)=14 X4/5= 11.2 rounded to 11, -1(Reduced speed) = 10.

You would also want to reduce your BASE strength and stamina by 2 each, gaining you 8 points and spend 2 of those points to increase your dodge/parry to account for the Growth penalty, so overall you'd be paying essentially 4 points for this armour to give you Fascinate, Teamwork, skill mastery(Affects others), Attractive(Affects others), reduced speed, +1 intimidate, -2 stealth.

The subtle on Teamwork would indicate that though you ARE making a check (Or just using your skill mastery), people wouldn't necessarily NOTICE that you're helping (As normally they would because you'd be talking) - you're just standing there looking awesome.

Binder Fred said:

Corrected. The array is now a 6PP base array with 3 alternate powers. Also added a linked Leaping-as-Attack to the Line Drive power to more accuretly reflect the in-game effect I had in mind (now he *does* actually toss the grabbed object/person down the Line ).

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Ah yes. That works.

Binder Fred said:

Hm, how so?

Teamwork (1 PP)
Perception Ranged (+1PP/ Rank)
Limited (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion, Stealth) (-1PP/ Rank)
Removable (No effect with a base cost of 1, but it belongs there so I put it in anyway)
Total = 1 PP

Skill Mastery (Deception, Intimidate, Persuasion) (3 PP)
Removable (Armor) (-1 PP/5 points, rounding up to the nearest 5 like in the example on p.149 = -1 PP)
Total = 2 PP

Grand Total = 3PP?

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Changing something Close range to Perception is +2... But actually, I just read what you had there. Jemal's right that Perception probably isn't necessary.
The main benefit is that you don't need to make an attack roll, and this is a friendly power.

Binder Fred said:

Would work very well for aiding Stealth, true, not so much for aiding in Persuassion, Intimidate or Deception (if I read the Fascinate entry right, the target(s) would be completely unaware the other characters are attempting these things whille they're entranced, right?). Is there a problem with the version I presented (other than the cost discussion above)? I'm rather pleased with it, actually. *Very* pleased if you allow him to use Intimidate or Deception distractions to help in Stealth attempts.

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That's true. And I'd say a check that makes sense to help somebody works fine. You make attack rolls to aid somebody's defense, after all.
Normally you'd roll Stealth to help somebody else along. Using a social skill has the obvious drawback that he can't hide himself, only help others while being very obvious personally.

Binder Fred said:

EDIT= Hm, could I Limit his Investigation skill to just Search plus Gather Information(criminals)? Gather evidence, Analyse evidence, Surveillance and talking to law-abiding citizens are not really his thing, at all for the first three.

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Sure, no problem.

First partial draft of the numbers:
[sblock=Dragon Force Mage]
PL6 (90PP)

Abilities: (12 pp)
STR 0 (0 pp)
STA 1 (2 pp)
DEX 0 (0 pp)
AGI 0 (0 pp)
FGT 0 (0 pp)
INT 2 (4 pp)
AWE 2 (4 pp)
PRE 1/2 (2 pp)

Offenses:
Initiative: +0 (0 agi)
Melee Attack: +0 (0 fgt)
Ranged Attack: +4 (0 dex +4 advantage)
Specific Attacks:

Defenses: (7pp)
Dodge: 2 (2 base + 0 agi +2 enhanced)
Parry: 2 (2 base + 0 fgt +2 enhanced)
Toughness: 8 (1 sta +2 enhanced +5 Mage Armour)
Fort: +4 (1 base +1 sta +2 enhanced)
Will: +6 (2 base +2 awe +2 enhanced)

Skills: ( ranks= pp)

Advantages: (10 pp)
Attractive, Luck 2, Ranged attack 4, Accurate Attack, All Out Attack, Power Attack

Powers: 53pp

Force Magic Array (Variable rank 6): 42pp
Common powers: (30pp pool)
Mage Armour: Sustained Protection 5: 5pp
Force Bolt: Damage rank 8 (Ranged+1, accurate 2, Improved Crit 2): 20pp
Magic Missile: Damage rank 6 (Perception ranged+2, Split 2): 20pp
Wall of Force: Create Rank 10 (Continuous+1, Impervious+1, Limited: Flat vertical wall-2, Subtle 2, Affects Insubstantial 2, Innate): 25pp

*items*
Ring of Protection +2: 8 pp
Enhanced Dodge +2(2), Enhanced Parry +2(2), Enhanced Fort +2(2), Enhanced Will +2(2), Enhanced Protection +2(2) = 10 pts -2 removable=8pp

Silver Shades of Persuassion: 3 pp
Enhanced Presence +1(2), Enhanced Advantage: Attractive(1), Immunity: Visual Afflictions(2)=5pts -2 Easily Removable=3pp

COST: 12 Abilities + X Skills + 10 Advantages + 7 Defenses + 53 Powers = 82/90
[/sblock]

*NOTE on wall of force: I do intend to Create force objects, and I will NOT be using 'limited shape' on ANY other one but wall of force, as with a variable effect that can become highly exploitable. The ONLY reason I'm using it for wall of force is because it is an iconic spell and I wanted to make it as it's own, specific thing: an Unmoving, hard to destroy, big vertical invisible wall.