Gundark
Explorer
Yeah in some ways Paizo's APs are kind of "system neutral"
D&D 5E Speculating about the future of the D&D industry/community in a post-5E world
Yeah in some ways Paizo's APs are kind of "system neutral"
Jake Johnson
First Post
Your post captures my sentiment well. I don't want to play something else (Pathfinder, etc.). I want D&D. As long as WotC has learned its lessons, and will continue to support the franchise as they appear to be doing now, listening to feedback, focusing on quality over quantity, I'm in. I must say that as a returning player, it is interesting to note the dynamic between D&D and Pathfinder. From an outsider's view, it definitely looks like Pathfinder has succeeded largely because D&D failed. As I mentioned in a previous post, it will be interesting to see what the landscape looks like when the 5E core rule books have been out for a year.
Starfox
Hero
Isn't this always the case with good adventures? I do a lot of conversion of adventures to my homebrew, so I regard adventures without looking very hard at what system they're in. I guess this is because I am a storyteller first; what I care about in an adventure is the plot/story, tactical elements can always be rewritten.
variant
Adventurer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons_video_games
We are talking about brand strength, not just popularity of an RPG based on a flawed ICv2 report. Brand strength determines how easily Pathfinder can adapt in a 5e era. Pathfinder just doesn't have the brand strength of even some less popular RPGs like Shadowrun and World of Darkness. I would more regard it as something like HackMaster. Its popularity is based on its relationship to D&D as opposed to on its own merits.
That probably depends on how much of the plot is based on the particular rules set in question. If it's written on the basis that a party will have access to certain resources and their enemy will have other resources to counter that, then it can be very hard to convert to another system that doesn't assume such things are easily obtained. Even specific versions of D&D show that, let alone other systems.
And to address the thread topic, D&D is going to be top of the IcV2 poll for a while and will probably sell well through Amazon and elsewhere too. And if WotC churn our more material (adventures, supplements, FR sourcebooks et al) at the rate Paizo do, then their sales volume will certainly be bigger. IcV2 will show D&D at the top of the pole, everyone will say this proves 5e is a great success, regardless of whether it meets it's internal sales targets. If they don't "support" the game with as much product as Paizo, then it might be a different story on IcV2 and no doubt 5e will be regarded as a failure if it doesn't stay at the top of that chart/poll, again regardless of whether it meets unknown and internal sales targets.
TrippyHippy
Hero
The new edition of D&D will always bring complications for it’s competitors, and Pathfinder et al are just that, ultimately. Their fans have been well catered for, but whatever weakness these games have in comparison to the ’new shiny’ will be highlighted now - not least when they are up against the major brand of the hobby.
For me, Pathfinder is just a complicated version of D&D now, and I’ve never liked the cartoon artwork. The design of the massive 500+ page core rules book may also come into question, while their starter set is more expensive than that provided by D&D too. There were marketing reasons for all that when they were originally produced, but that will be the cursory inspection of many wavering or casual fans.
To me, the major reason for supporting Pathfinder was because of the regularity of finding gaming groups - a significant inhibitor in many other rpgs. I was also a fan of how they generally listened to their fan base and basically gave them what they wanted, but if D&D comes back in force then these advantages go too.
The question as to Pathfinder’s future IS a speculation, of course, but I do feel that most games operate in cycles of popularity. Many choose to recycle themselves with new editions or highly anticipated supplements to keep current fans interested. If Pathfinder is heading for a typical ’tail end’ of their current cycle and decide they need to reboot, then Paizo will have to think carefully. As it stands, it is there and still selling as far as I know, but I’m not really sure what the selling point over D&D is now, beyond simple brand loyalty.
For me, Pathfinder is just a complicated version of D&D now, and I’ve never liked the cartoon artwork. The design of the massive 500+ page core rules book may also come into question, while their starter set is more expensive than that provided by D&D too. There were marketing reasons for all that when they were originally produced, but that will be the cursory inspection of many wavering or casual fans.
To me, the major reason for supporting Pathfinder was because of the regularity of finding gaming groups - a significant inhibitor in many other rpgs. I was also a fan of how they generally listened to their fan base and basically gave them what they wanted, but if D&D comes back in force then these advantages go too.
The question as to Pathfinder’s future IS a speculation, of course, but I do feel that most games operate in cycles of popularity. Many choose to recycle themselves with new editions or highly anticipated supplements to keep current fans interested. If Pathfinder is heading for a typical ’tail end’ of their current cycle and decide they need to reboot, then Paizo will have to think carefully. As it stands, it is there and still selling as far as I know, but I’m not really sure what the selling point over D&D is now, beyond simple brand loyalty.
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I've played a lot of [MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION] homebrew (and love it to bits!) - it has been used in our main 8h/week campaign for the past three-four years. We've played Pathfinder AP adventures, Pathfinder Society adventures, lots of old D&D adventures from [MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION] extensive archive of Dungeon Magazine, from the first issue to the last days of 3.5E - everything we've played have been conversions. [MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION] homebrew, http://hastur.net/wiki/Action, is very different from d20 mechanically, but can be very similar in flavour, which is what matters.
Starfox
Hero
This is what I mean by tactics. And to be honest, an adventure to which this was a central element is not a good adventure IMO. Your mileage may vary.
Jester David
Hero
Paizo is undoubtedly going to take a hit.
How much of a hit remains to be seen. The audiences are a little different and Pathfinder can build on it's reputation as a more mature system with non-standard releases and greater customization due to the wealth or crunch. And Pathfinder can continue to attract the players who really want a crunchy, rules heavy experience rather than an OSR 5e.
It will be a long while before WotC can do something like Wrath or the Righteous, let alone Iron Gods or Reign of Winter.
Still, Paizo is putting out a LOT of books and has been hiring new staff at a pretty heavy rate. This might hurt them when it comes time to tighten the belt and reduce the number of books.
Paizo also hasn't done themselves any favours by doubling down on the Pathfinder brand rather than diversifying and building a stable of other products. Even their generic RPG products have switched from "Game Mastery" to "Pathfinder".
Two advantages Paizo have are it's focus on adventures and organized play program. Even if 5e kicks PF's ass, the Adventure Paths might continue to sell well. It will take a while for WotC to build up a stable of good adventures and provide people with a choice of campaign theme.
Pathfinder Society is also going strong, with a really healthy fanbase, lots of established volunteers, and wealth of adventures. They campaign is well established and a lot of the rough bits of managing a huge OP program have been smoothed over six years. It will take Expeditions some time to compete, and the early few months will be rough.
Paizo also has fanboys. People love D&D but few people love WotC. They're pretty faceless as a company, the upper management is pretty divorced from the fans, and the CEO isn't remotely a gamer of any stripe. I quite like the D&D team, but they're a small cog at the mercy of the big company.
In contrast, people love Paizo. They're no longer small, but still come off as a small company and interact pretty closely with the fans. And Pathfinder is a huge part of the company. There's a lot more brand loyalty. I can see a lot of people continuing to buy Pathfinder releases to support Paizo.
How much of a hit remains to be seen. The audiences are a little different and Pathfinder can build on it's reputation as a more mature system with non-standard releases and greater customization due to the wealth or crunch. And Pathfinder can continue to attract the players who really want a crunchy, rules heavy experience rather than an OSR 5e.
It will be a long while before WotC can do something like Wrath or the Righteous, let alone Iron Gods or Reign of Winter.
Still, Paizo is putting out a LOT of books and has been hiring new staff at a pretty heavy rate. This might hurt them when it comes time to tighten the belt and reduce the number of books.
Paizo also hasn't done themselves any favours by doubling down on the Pathfinder brand rather than diversifying and building a stable of other products. Even their generic RPG products have switched from "Game Mastery" to "Pathfinder".
Two advantages Paizo have are it's focus on adventures and organized play program. Even if 5e kicks PF's ass, the Adventure Paths might continue to sell well. It will take a while for WotC to build up a stable of good adventures and provide people with a choice of campaign theme.
Pathfinder Society is also going strong, with a really healthy fanbase, lots of established volunteers, and wealth of adventures. They campaign is well established and a lot of the rough bits of managing a huge OP program have been smoothed over six years. It will take Expeditions some time to compete, and the early few months will be rough.
Paizo also has fanboys. People love D&D but few people love WotC. They're pretty faceless as a company, the upper management is pretty divorced from the fans, and the CEO isn't remotely a gamer of any stripe. I quite like the D&D team, but they're a small cog at the mercy of the big company.
In contrast, people love Paizo. They're no longer small, but still come off as a small company and interact pretty closely with the fans. And Pathfinder is a huge part of the company. There's a lot more brand loyalty. I can see a lot of people continuing to buy Pathfinder releases to support Paizo.
Werebat
Explorer
This is my opinion as well.
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