will 4.0 succeed?

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

I know there are people out there for which the thematics like the "D&D Bildungsroman of low levels, the Great Wheel or 9 alignments might matter. But these are not the only one. I will not take any bets on whose in the majority, but just in case the "thematics" are the majority now - maybe that's the reason why the hobby is not bigger? Maybe if more was focused on playability and game balance, there would just be even more people that would come interested and like the game in the long run.

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Now there's a thought!

Dragonblade said:

The thing is that D&D in prior editions worked differently. It didn't take hours to make a character in 1e. Heck in 1e the characters were thinly veiled avatars for the players themselves. Save or Die works when you play a beer and pretzels game where any death is only a 5 minute delay to roll up a new guy and jump back into the dungeon. But D&D has evolved since then. Its now more about story and continuity of characters and plot. Character creation is something that takes time and attention to detail, yet we still use mechanics from an era with vastly different assumptions on how the game was played. I see 4e as correcting this discrepancy.

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And another one!

Both QFT.

Stereofm said:

Of course it sells well, this is one the first month, and all the blind faith converts have all ordered.

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The idea that we are blind to 4e - given the details available in the preview books, online info, playtest reports, KoTSF, etc - is risible.

Whisperfoot said:

Having a game where the PCs can die is not a broken system. If it were broken, the ideal game is one where you would sit down to play, congratulate everyone for showing up, tell them that they win and are the most awesome players in the history of the game ever, and then sit for hours talking about how brilliant your character is.

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You'd almost think there's never been a successful game published in which PC's don't face the threat of death - oh wait, without even going outside d20 games there's OGL Conan!

Whisperfoot said:

The DM exists to steer the game in the direction he intended, and if the die rolls go the other way, it is up to the DM to be the storyteller and figure out a way to fix things on the fly. If there were no need for a DM, that position would never have been written in as a fundamental aspect of the game.

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The GM can have all sorts of roles in the game besides railroading and fudging dice. If the rules are properly written then those other roles can start to come to the fore.

So time to chime in.

I am an old school gamer. I started with BECMI->AD&D->AD&D 2nd->3.x

I was always trying to fix 3.x. It never worked quite right for me. There were things that I liked in 3.x mostly because they were a way to play besides the standard D&Disms (psionics were just a way to play a non-Vancian caster). When Book of Nine Swords came out I was ecstatic. Finally a way to play interesting warriors that weren't barbarians. These ideas were central to 4e. I think that I liked 4e before it came out.

The fluff has always sucked. I came up with better worlds. Ebberon was the first that really intrigued me. It was meant to be cinematic and focussed on an interesting narrative with cool themes. This has continued into 4e.

Many of my old school buddies are into 4e. I am not the only one that has lots of old school buddies that like 4e. Lizard seems to be coming around!

So yes. 4e is obviously going to be a success. It already is. People are pre-ordering unprecedented amounts of books. WotC has adopted the revenue schemes of two very successful games (M:tG and WoW). Old gamers are excited and are coming back to the fold. And even the people who say they hate it are buying the books!

It will be an interesting next year. We will see the majority of the fencers and the h4terz come to 4e. It happened in AD&D 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5. It will happen again. We will get to see if WotC can get some new blood. And hopefully 4e will be modular enough that I will be able to quit being frustrated with the system I play.

Echoing the "It will be a sales success in RPG terms, but if Hasbro people have unrealistic expectations they might not see it as a success" replies.

And if 4E is a success even in Hasbro terms, I hope that won't be used to dismiss my reasons for not converting with "h4ter, I don't care what you say about your gaming preferences or your group's idea of fun, you're still going to switch when your group talks about how much more fun they'd have playing 4E like everyone else!".

And if 4E is a success even in Hasbro terms, I hope that won't be used to dismiss my reasons for not converting with "h4ter, I don't care what you say about your gaming preferences or your group's idea of fun, you're still going to switch when your group talks about how much more fun they'd have playing 4E like everyone else!".

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I agree- I hope those who like and dislike the new game can simply agree to disagree until the next iteration of the game.

I just gamed last night, and the guys asked me for an update on 4Ed info.

Many of the changes that I personally dislike- the 5 alignments, the new multiclassing rules, the shuffling of races and classes out of the basic PHB- also resonated poorly with them. From their expressions, it was like sitting at a table watching people taste curried grapefruit.

The changes I did like were greeted with a resounding "Meh."

Somehow, I don't see them having fun "playing 4Ed like everyone else."

I couldn't resist - kind of an interesting thread to look back on, five and a half years later. I just read through the first page, and then [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]'s eerily prophetic last post.

I did enjoy my time playing 4Ed, and even had 2 other strong PC concepts to play*, but ultimately, the game withered on the vine in our group.

We have happily returned to a 3.5ed in a new campaign, but make no mistake, I will miss things about it.








* Hellbox- a Warforged created as a living gateway to the lower planes, rebelling against his purpose (Hellaiser LeMarchand box + Hellboy) and Rigel ibn Azimech, a Draconic paladin based on the Arabic scholar depicted in 13th Warrior.

What is an open question is whether 4e's life-cycle was short because it was different or simply because ten year editions are no longer financially viable. Time, and 5e, will tell...

Dungeoneer said:

What is an open question is whether 4e's life-cycle was short because it was different or simply because ten year editions are no longer financially viable. Time, and 5e, will tell...

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I think DDI had a deleterious effect on WotC's revenue. I spent maybe $150 on books, plus $75/year on DDI, whereas they got way more out of me in 3.5 in wood pulp. Convenient for me; I get all the books almost free. Not so convenient for a publicly traded company.

EDIT: And I think the 10 year edition is long dead. Note that WotC double-dipped on 3.x after four years, and four years later PF was able to sell the same game again with tweaks. The market has decided; gamers are willing and able to re-buy all the core rule-books every 4 years, and so that is what the publishers will provide.

Halivar said:

I think DDI had a deleterious effect on WotC's revenue. I spent maybe $150 on books, plus $75/year on DDI, whereas they got way more out of me in 3.5 in wood pulp. Convenient for me; I get all the books almost free. Not so convenient for a publicly traded company.

EDIT: And I think the 10 year edition is long dead. Note that WotC double-dipped on 3.x after four years, and four years later PF was able to sell the same game again with tweaks. The market has decided; gamers are willing and able to re-buy all the core rule-books every 4 years, and so that is what the publishers will provide.

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Well the whole wood pulp thing illustrates the difference between now and when 3.0 came out: print has changed in a big way. People want digital copies of things and there is a lot less money to be made by selling hardcovers these days.

I don't think DDI is the culprit. I think DDI is the only thing standing between WotC making $75/year off you and NO $/year off you.