Force Orbs - Target the Ground or wat??

[Danceofmasks]

It's the only way to make the power hit everyone in a 3x3 ...
'cos by definition of adjacent squares, if you target an object in the same square as a creature (such as a chair), the splash damage would hit creatures in squares around that one, and the guy sitting in the chair would be unscathed.

Edit:
I'm just trying to parse some mechanics for what the OP intended .. as per DMG p45, movement in 3 dimensions.

 

[erik_the_guy]

You attack the ground at the creatures feet. You also attack each adjacent target. The eight squares around are adjacent. The rules are not clear on whether the character in the square is considered adjacent, but any reasonable DM will rule that the answer is yes.

As for an attack roll against the ground? I would assign REF 5 at the most.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Any reasonable DM would also say a flaming sphere burns things in its own square (since it doesn't occupy one).
But .. we're not really here to discuss DM fiat ..

The OP effectively asked "is this possible?" meaning can they do it by RAW and how?

Which would also mean the OP is asking for a consistent DC for hitting the ground (rather than one you make up).

 

[Keenath]

It's the only way to make the power hit everyone in a 3x3 ...

Whether the rules support what you wish you could do is not relevant. There's no way any reading of the rules supports the idea that the ground that defines the bottom of a square is somehow part of the square below the ground and not part of the square the creatures are in.

'cos by definition of adjacent squares, if you target an object in the same square as a creature (such as a chair), the splash damage would hit creatures in squares around that one, and the guy sitting in the chair would be unscathed.

Yes, that is how Force Orb would work. I don't claim it's sensical, only that it's correct. In any case, that's probably not going to come up. The PC is probably going to be targetting an empty square in an attempt to hit a group of enemies.

Edit:
I'm just trying to parse some mechanics for what the OP intended .. as per DMG p45, movement in 3 dimensions.

The 3d movement rules in no way support any concept of the floor not being part of your space.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Don't think of it as a floor.

How about this. You're standing on a 5'x5' cube.
I want to target the top surface of the cube.

 

[Keenath]

You attack the ground at the creatures feet. You also attack each adjacent target. The eight squares around are adjacent. The rules are not clear on whether the character in the square is considered adjacent, but any reasonable DM will rule that the answer is yes.

Not necessarily. A reasonable DM would be well within his rights to say you aren't allowed to 'target the ground' to turn a single-target power with a conditional secondary attack into a burst 1.

The rules are actually very clear that a square isn't adjacent to itself.
1) Creatures or objects are adjacent if the squares they occupy are adjacent.
2) Two squares are adjacent if they touch on a side or a corner.

A square itself is not two squares, so it simply can't fit into the definition, and "adjacent creature" is just shorthand for "creature in an adjacent square". A creature in the target square is not in a square adjacent to his own square, so he simply does not count.

 

[Keenath]

Don't think of it as a floor.

How about this. You're standing on a 5'x5' cube.
I want to target the top surface of the cube.

I already considered that. You can't. It's a solid cube that completely fills the space; any shot that attempts to enter the space impacts on the surface and explodes there, outside the cube. Or, in other words, in the creature's space.

You can't make the floor not be the floor just by wanting.

 

[Keenath]

Any reasonable DM would also say a flaming sphere burns things in its own square (since it doesn't occupy one).

Huh? What on earth makes you think it doesn't occupy a square? It's a medium-sized flaming sphere. Nothing in the spell description says the sphere is incorporeal or phasing or anything else that would imply it's not a real, solid sphere.

 

[StormCrow42]

Huh? What on earth makes you think it doesn't occupy a square? It's a medium-sized flaming sphere. Nothing in the spell description says the sphere is incorporeal or phasing or anything else that would imply it's not a real, solid sphere.

The current errata states that conjurations don't prevent people from entering their square. Flaming sphere damages adjacent creatures. Therefore (by some arguments which I don't personally agree with), flaming sphere is actually a donut and you can stand in the center without taking damage.

 

[Keenath]

The current errata states that conjurations don't prevent people from entering their square. Flaming sphere damages adjacent creatures. Therefore (by some arguments which I don't personally agree with), flaming sphere is actually a donut and you can stand in the center without taking damage.

Well... that's a bad ruling. The spell is clearly intended to conjure a physical ball of flames that takes up a space. The 3.x version didn't take up a space, and caused all manner of problems because of it.