What the heck does Hidden mean!!

[Delgaddo]

A major problem with the stealth RAW is that there is no defined state for the condition given by a successful stealth check. I know the current consensus seems to be that stealth is not a state just a descriptor for various actions – but the RAW don’t seem to jive with this interpretation even though it’s the one being put forth by WotC atm.

Some examples:
In the KotS adventure on Page 41 it states," ..allowing them to duck out of sight, attempt a stealth check, and then (if the check suceeds) attack from hiding." It doesn't say attack stealthily it says attack from hiding.

Page 134 of the MM under the Gnome Skulk’s shadow step ability, " When a gnome skulk makes a melee or a ranged attack from hiding and misses…"

In the stealth rules under success on page 188 it says "You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden".

Page 21 of the DMG says "The Kobold slinger attempts to lure the PCs into the room, where the others hide."

The PHB refers to hiding in various areas such as the Rogue level 6 exploit Chameleon on pg. 120 where the trigger is "You are hidden and lose cover an concealment"

If hidden is not an actual state then WotC needs to errata all the above.

If hidden is an actual state recognized in game then how does one define being Hidden? Does it mean a target is unaware of you, or a target just can’t see you, both, or does it mean no opponent can see you or is aware of you? It seems that the stealth section in the PHB says that by passing a stealth check with cover and concealment you are "hidden from view." which I interpret as you become hidden. But it doesn’t say what hidden is, does or means in game terms anywhere!!

The section on combat advantage doesn’t recognize a condition of hiding as a means of gaining combat advantage– it just says an opponent is unable to see the attacker and unaware of you– are both of these criteria the definition of Hidden -assuming hidden actually exists in game terms? Also what is the game definition of unaware - another vague term at best.

The problem I’m wresting with is that if hidden is to be a condition like the other defined conditions (i.e dazed, prone, etc) it has to be absolute. In other words you can’t be hidden from one NPC (i.e your target) but not another. If it’s not a condition then really is just an arbitrary state that should not be referred to in the rules especially as a trigger state for an immediate interrupt.

The only definition I could come up with for an absolute state would be something like the following definition:

If A) no opponent has LOS to you or B) you have cover against or concealment from all opponents with LOS to you and you pass a stealth check against them, then you are hidden.
You remain in a hidden state until you attack, make a loud noise (large gray area no doubt) or no longer have any cover against or concealment from any opponent who has LOS to you. While hidden you are granted combat advantage against all opponents.

The problem with this is that is greatly hindered a rogue’s ability to drop in and out of a hidden state (if that is in fact what they do) since it requires cover against all opponents instead of just his/her target.

The whole hidden, unaware, out-of-sight, stealthy nomenclature is a total cluster-F***. They really need to clearly define what they heck they mean by the words unaware, hide and hidden and how stealth and combat advantage relate to them. It seems like they constantly use different terms and conditions to describe what seem like states but are not recognized as such.

Please understand I’m not pushing a certain solution just the idea that we need one and what precisely I’d like to see addressed in the solution.

 

[Dalzig]

Hidden: The general condition of going unseen while hiding.

I'm failing to see how hard this is. You gain Total Concealment and Combat Advantage.

4E, while appearing to be more rules heavy than 3E, is depending on the DM to make rational decisions regarding things that are common sense.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Heyas Dalzig. Nice to see you made your way over here.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I agree with OP, its not that simple, especially when it come to granting CA. What does "unaware" mean? Is that the same as being hidden or simply not targetable? That makes stealth almost equal to invisibility for many combat purposes. Or does unaware mean the enemy not only cannot detect you at the moment but does not even know you are there at all, which means once you attack they are at least "aware" of you?

All this stuff about stealthing up in combat and getting large combat bonuses for making a skill roll as a minor action does not sit well with me. It would be nice if they could stick to terminology used in other sections of the book or at least clearly define the words they use as they are intended for the mechanics of the game.

 

[starwed]

It would be nice if they could stick to terminology used in other sections of the book or at least clearly define the words they use as they are intended for the mechanics of the game.

It would be nice if they gave some bloody examples of how Stealth was intended to be used. I don't really care too much for the rules technicalities, but I'm playing a rogue and would like to actually use Stealth on the battlefield. Right now have now idea what's appropriate.

 

[Delgaddo]

Hidden: The general condition of going unseen while hiding.

I'm failing to see how hard this is. You gain Total Concealment and Combat Advantage.

4E, while appearing to be more rules heavy than 3E, is depending on the DM to make rational decisions regarding things that are common sense.

Yeah thanks I know the dictionary definition of hiding, what I'm wondering is when, if ever, in D&D are you considered to be hiding? What makes you hidden, is it being unseen from your target or from all targets, is it just passing a stealth check? If it's unseen as you said then what exactly defines unseen? If you pass a stealth check while taking cover behind an ally are you unseen and hidden - if not then are you not hidden but still get combat advantage? If being hidden grants you total concealment then are you not hidden if you pass a stealth check while moving through one square of bushes that don't block line of sight?

If iI was to use common sense then nothing would be hidden while fighting in a 40 x 40 dungeon room - but thats not how the RAW are intended to be from the best I can tell.

I can definitely house rule this, limit it, nerf it, open it up whatever and I will until something official is put out, but the point of my post was to illustrate where one of the major problems with Stealth lies aside form the myriad of other issues already pointed out.

 

[Contents May Vary]

I agree that the rules should be clearer.

What seems quite obvious while reading the rules becomes less so when you actually play a few sessions. There are a number of ambiguities which the DM has to decide on, which is certainly possible - but it's unsatisfying to have to do so for something so fundamental to the combat mechanics.

More RP oriented stuff like crafting and more specific skills I'm quite happy to make up as I go along; but core combat mechanics I prefer to be more stringently defined.

 

[James McMurray]

They use different terms because they've made a conscious decision to avoid having a rulebook that reads like a law book. When the rulebook doesn't define a term, fall back on your dictionary.

Hidden: concealed
Unaware: without knowledge, not cognizant

 

[Mistwell]

I think there are essentially two conditions related to stealth: 1) Actually Hidden, 2) Blocked from clear view.

Hidden means your target is actually not aware of you.

Blocked from clear view means your target is aware of you, but doesn't have a clear shot at you because you are using the cover/concealment to it's best advantage for your position.

You can have cover/concealment without using stealth (or with using stealth but being beat by your foe's perception check). When you do so, you're using it to your advantage (it blocks some view) but not to your best advantage (you are not dodging around and slinking down as best you can to gain the best benefit from that cover/concealment).

 

[Syrsuro]

I am going to, in the absence of a ruling to the contrary, take it to mean a) that the character is out of sight and b) either the opponent does not know about the character OR the opponent is significantly mistaken about the opponents location.

That is, if you peek out and shoot, and then duck back - but do not then move (or only move 5' or so) - the opponent is going to assume that you are where he last saw you and if you jump up in that same spot again his belief will be confirmed and he will not be considered 'unaware'. Likewise, if you attempt to move after the shot and your stealth check is not sufficient to avoid his perception, he will be aware of your location (even if he cannot see you).

If, on the other hand, you move (making a successful steath check against his perception) from that location, the NPC (having failed to perceive your movement) will still believe that you are where he saw you last and thus when you attack it will be as if he was unaware of you. In other words - once you have attacked the NPC, he doesn't forget you exist, but he may be mistaken about where you are. But if his assumption regarding your location is correct (stealth check or not), you will not gain any benefits because he is expecting you to attack from that location. To gain any benefit from stealth following an attack, you have to in some way invalidate the opponents assumptions - most likely by stealthily moving to a new location after your attack, before your next attack or both (and whether he gets an active or passive perception check to attempt to spot that movement will likely depend on whether or not he has a minor action to spend watching to see where you went).

This feels like common sense, but I have to admit I haven't yet seen it in action (we've only played one session so far with the 4E rules and the rogue only used stealth once and didn't attempt to re-hide).


Carl