Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[mmadsen]

Maybe I am a bit to optimistic, but I think D&D 4 has both.

The 4E dailies are unique powers that are "reliable" to pull off (within the constraints of rolling d20s and so on).

But using all those at-will, encounter and daily powers together does create "meta-powers" - tactics and strategies that will usually prove effective (provided a given set of constraints, like "a lot of enemies are minions" or "there is a choke point" or "we're surrounded"). The trick is finding them, because they are not neatly labeled (yet)...

I think you're right that "combos" will arise. My complaint wasn't the lack of such tactics, but rather that meta-game constraints were needed at all.

I'd like to see once-per-encounter exploits only be useful or possible roughly once per encounter, because conditions in the game actually aren't right, not useful or possible most of the time, but limited purely by the rule, which has no in-game rationale.

 

[IanArgent]

You've lost me again.

I think we can agree that all mundane powers are martial, even though not all martial powers are mundane.

Anyway, the problem -- and it's obviously only a problem for some people -- is that these martial exploits face meta-game constraints, not in-game constraints. The player is making decisions based on totally different criteria from his character.

I don't have a perfect, fully-formed alternative set of rules ready to go, but we can discuss alternatives that would make more sense than one-per-day exploits.

For instance, if we want to emulate the rarity of good openings for spectacular moves, we can allow a quasi-attack roll each turn. Choose an exploit, roll to not-quite-attack, and if you "hit", you see an opening and perform your exploit. If you "miss", you don't see an opening, and you fall back on your basic attack.

That's just off the top of my head, but it moves a meta-game resource back into the game as a question of whether there's an opening or not.

This was, essentially, the rational for miss-chance in 3E. There's a reason it's gone. I would rather have the metagame construct of at-will/encounter/daily (AED) than potentially never see the Ultimate Move of Ultimate Coolness because my dice hate me (or my players - I play both sides of the screen).

All the mechanics for randomizing or making the use of powers less predicatable end up a)taking longer, and b) making them less important. If you can't count of your daily to come up against the BBEG, it's a lot less interesting, useful, and fun (last IMNSHO). Gathering tokens is interesting, but much more board-gamey, heavier book-keeping, and subject to the fight ending first.

Earthdawn had a class that had a 3-round attack sequence (Parry, riposte, ATTACK) that could do a crapload of damage once it charged up. By the time the guy playing that class got around to unleashing it; his opponent was generally dead by the rest of the party doing average damage across those 3 rounds. Tokens to me look the same way.

 

[pemerton]

Think about an attack that deals 49 points of damage to a foe. It brings him down to 1 hit points. Your next attack deals 11 points of damage, killing him outright. (3E rules). Which attack looked more impressive, more powerful? The one that prepared your enemy for the killing blow, or the killing blow?

Not quite QFT, because it's a question rather than an assertion. But one of several good posts on this thread, Mustrum.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think you're right that "combos" will arise. My complaint wasn't the lack of such tactics, but rather that meta-game constraints were needed at all.

I'd like to see once-per-encounter exploits only be useful or possible roughly once per encounter, because conditions in the game actually aren't right, not useful or possible most of the time, but limited purely by the rule, which has no in-game rationale.

I think one reason for going with daily powers - aside from the arising tactical implications - is that if you don't have them, you have nothing to get you out of a tough situation.

I played a 3E Warlock - all powers are at-will.
If the fight was going well, I used Eldritch Blast.
If the fight was hard, I used Eldritch Blast.
If the fight was really hard, I used everything I had... Which was Eldritch Blast. There was no way to spent any last-ditch effort resources for me.

Daily Powers are required for gameplay. They might not have an in-game rationale, but the game suffers if you don't have a desperate measure available. That's why even games that don't generally use powers have some kind of mechanic for this - action points, possibilities, karma, fortune...

 

[Shadeydm]

Daily Powers are required for gameplay. They might not have an in-game rationale, but the game suffers if you don't have a desperate measure available. That's why even games that don't generally use powers have some kind of mechanic for this - action points, possibilities, karma, fortune...

Wow I had no idea that I had been suffering for the past 26 years because there were no daily powers in my games. Thanks for clearing that up I feel so much better about them now.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wow I had no idea that I had been suffering for the past 26 years because there were no daily powers in my games. Thanks for clearing that up I feel so much better about them now.

Well, usually you probably had them - they were called spells. And sometimes magical items.

Maybe I should have mentioned that my Warlock was member of a party with a Dragon Shaman, a Paladin and a Druid (with the Druid player and his character partially absent). The lack of daily resources showed.


Edit: And please, don't always assume that people are attacking your play style or trying to invalidate your experience, damn it! I don't want to feel like I am walking on eggs when I post something!
I have had a lot of fun with 3E, too. Including the aforementioned Warlock!

 

[Steely Dan]

Wow I had no idea that I had been suffering for the past 26 years because there were no daily powers in my games. Thanks for clearing that up I feel so much better about them now.

If you've played any 3rd Ed there were plenty of daily powers (rage, stunning fist, smite evil etc).

 

[Shadeydm]

If you've played any 3rd Ed there were plenty of daily powers (rage, stunning fist, smite evil etc).

Sorry I didn't realize 3.xE had been around around for 26 years, my bad clearly.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If you've played any 3rd Ed there were plenty of daily powers (rage, stunning fist, smite evil etc).

Sorry I didn't realize 3.xE had been around around for 26 years, my bad clearly.

There are still spells, that have been around since the beginning. And are daily. And the thing I addressed had nothing to do with martial daily powers, but with daily powers in general.

 

[Steely Dan]

Sorry I didn't realize 3.xE had been around around for 26 years, my bad clearly.

I never said that, why are you being so aggressive and defensive?

All I said was that if you played 3rd Ed (however many times) it had daily abilities as well.

And the fact that you keep bringing up that fact that you've been playing for 26 years is getting creepy – got something to prove?

I've been playing for 21 years, wow, yay, fascinating…