Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Mongolia Jones]

Comparing powers ... is certified retarded.

Don't be rude to other people here with remarks like that.

Thanks

I agree with Plane Sailing.

To Grumindong: we are a calm and civil bunch here. A heated debate is always welcome, just without the name calling. And if you are who I suspect you are, DnD style forums are not anything like the SA or EvE-O forums.

P.S. Long live the Nano-HAC

 

[ST]

So, assume I put Fire Storm as available to wizards as well as clerics at 19, as a houserule.

Can anyone see any particular problems with doing that? If that wouldn't break anything, it seems like the easiest change.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

lol, whut?

No, you are wrong. Wizards can destroy solos and elites. All they need is a good status effect and an orb. Oh sorry, you're out of the encounter for... 2 or 3 rounds, that okay? Sure, we might all coup de grace you during that time, but I'm sure it won't hurt too much.

And if you miss with your Sleep +Orb effect then you better come up with Plan B. Oh ya, Solos/Elites have great defenses too. Plus sleep does no damage on a miss, that's a footsie.

Fire Storm guarantees damage.

Besides that, you can use the Bigby's hands, which I think are quite nice. A staff mage is best with them, and can be a rather effective wizard, just not a typical (superior IMO) "control" wizard.

Bigby's hand spells vs Solos & Elites:
1. You need to hit every round opponent is out of hand
2. Solos/Elites are hard to hit (high defenses)
3. Solos/Elites still have standard and minor actions available when held/immobilized
4. Does crappy damage vs Solos/Elite (footsie)

Fire Storm auto-hits every round after the initial casting, does top-level striker damage.

Why do you insist that controlling is "playing footsie"?

Yes, I still insist controlling is playing footsie vs. normals, here's why.

You can spend 8+ rounds stunning, blinding, pushing, blah, blah, blah. Denying your opponents of 50% their actions.

Or

You can spend 3 or 4 rounds and nuke them all. This way you deny your opponents of any more than 3 or 4 rounds of actions and save your party from using too many dailies.

See, no need for control.

When you give enemies status effects, it is not simply for your benefit, it is to the party's benefit. If you hadn't locked those melee guys down, the Defender would've had to engage them, leaving the Controller and Artillery free to hit your party in the face until the Striker managed to get there. Instead, you bypass the melee enemies entirely, and annihilate their more damaging comrades before getting back to them. Which would I prefer, doing 10 more damage to each of the enemies or this? Hmm, that's a hard choice. /sarcasm

Read my post above. Eliminating opponents faster saves your party resources and denies opponents actions.

In conclusion, wizards play footsie.

War clerics get the job done fast and move on.

 

[DemonLord57]

And if you miss with your Sleep +Orb effect then you better come up with Plan B. Oh ya, Solos/Elites have great defenses too. Plus sleep does no damage on a miss, that's a footsie.

Fire Storm guarantees damage.

Damage. Is. Not. Useful. For. Control.

Bigby's hand spells vs Solos & Elites:
1. You need to hit every round opponent is out of hand
2. Solos/Elites are hard to hit (high defenses)
3. Solos/Elites still have standard and minor actions available when held/immobilized
4. Does crappy damage vs Solos/Elite (footsie)

Let's examine this, shall we.
1. No, you don't. You need to hit again if they manage to escape, and they wasted their action to do so.
2. Yes, but you don't lose your attack if you miss, (like you would with almost all other attacks) and you can easily get some boosts to attacks.
3. Yes. They are immobilized, though. That is the important part.
4. See above.

Fire Storm auto-hits every round after the initial casting, does top-level striker damage.

See above, and really? Your strikers do that crappy damage with their dailies? They kind of suck, then.

Yes, I still insist controlling is playing footsie vs. normals, here's why.

You can spend 8+ rounds stunning, blinding, pushing, blah, blah, blah. Denying your opponents of 50% their actions.

Or

You can spend 3 or 4 rounds and nuke them all. This way you deny your opponents of any more than 3 or 4 rounds of actions and save your party from using too many dailies.

See, no need for control.



Read my post above. Eliminating opponents faster saves your party resources and denies opponents actions.

In conclusion, wizards play footsie.

War clerics get the job done fast and move on.

Wow.... you have no idea what you are talking about. If you alone can actually take out all of the enemies, your DM is doing something incredibly wrong. If you think that the difference in damage you do is enough to drop the number of rounds by even more than 1, you are almost assuredly wrong. Do some math. Show me how you would do enough damage to make up for 4 rounds of your party's attacks. Show me how not giving your party all sorts of combat advantage around the battlefield through status effects, while allowing them to move and attack freely makes the party damage output even close to that of the control wizard's party. Oh, and then show me how not denying your opponents actions makes it so your party takes less damage (hell, I'll take equal).

The point of control is to allow your party to deal with the encounter more easily. It doesn't kill the enemies on its own. That's the point. YOU stop the enemies. THEY kill the enemies. Trying to play a striker as a wizard is a guaranteed way to be less effective.

 

[Roxlimn]

59 AoE damage once a day?!?!? You're crowing about that? It's good, but it's not enough to bring a Cleric up to speed. At level 20, typical Standards have about 200 HP or so. 59 is only about a fourth of that, and this is a Daily - as in you only do it once a day.

To compare, a Wizard can use his 15th level Daily - Wall of Ice to seperate an encounter in two, essentially halving the difficulty each in exchange for longer duration, plus damage shenanigans, of course. That's an I WIN power, because half an encounter is very easy. Very, very easy.

When you finish doing your 59 points of damage, the baddies will still be standing. Now what? You're holding it as a minor action now - you'll have to sac move actions to use healing powers or you kiss their applications goodbye.

Alright. The crowd wants damage. You want damage? I'll give you damage.

Bolstered Prismatic Beams: 2d6+7/4/2 + 2d6 +7/4/2 + 2d10 + 10 (total ongoing) + daze. Total 1st round: 61 damage.

That's a lower level daily, and I'm not even maxing it. I'm just applying one feature from a common Wizard PP.

You don't want that? Well, what PP are we talking about? Battle Mage? Alright, let's do Closing Spell: average 57 damage all impact (damage on point).

You don't want that? Let's do Spellstorm Mage with Extra Damage Action! +9 damage to standard actions on action point.

We're not even tapping encounter powers here. What kind of damage pressure can a Cleric put on already damaged dudes after the first round? 18.5 damage? Decent for a minor action, but a Wizard will get the job done before that's gotten anywhere.


Is Firestorm the best control spell for level 19? No.
Is it the best damage spell for the spread? No.
Can a Cleric upstage a Wizard for AoE damage using this spell? No.

Here's a challenge. Mongolia Jones here is saying that Firestorm is good because a Cleric can use it to nuke an enemy in 3-4 rounds and kill them all. I'd like to see anyone try that. Nuke enemies worth 200 points of AoE damage in 4 rounds using a 19th level Cleric.

Go!

 

[Mongolia Jones]

Damage. Is. Not. Useful. For. Control.

Logic equation 1:
Control -> Denies opponents actions
Denying opponents actions -> less damage to party
-therefore-
Control -> less damage to party

Logic Equation 2:
Damage -> Eliminates opponents faster
Eliminating opponents faster -> less damage to party
-therefore-
Damage -> less damage to party

-when you combine the two equations above-
Damage = Control

Let's examine this, shall we.
1. No, you don't. You need to hit again if they manage to escape, and they wasted their action to do so.
2. Yes, but you don't lose your attack if you miss, (like you would with almost all other attacks) and you can easily get some boosts to attacks.
3. Yes. They are immobilized, though. That is the important part.
4. See above.

1. It takes a MOVE action to escape, grabbed opponents can still attack you with a ranged attacks using the STANDARD action, or try to escape a second time, in the same round. This makes the hand spells that much crappier.
2. But still, you will be hitting solos less that 50% of the times, so not so great. To move the hand to a different square costs you a move action
3. They are immobilized yes, but they are still alive for you to continue playing footsie with.

Your strikers do that crappy damage with their dailies? They kind of suck, then.

Firstly, these are not MY strikers as we are all playing the same game.
Secondly, if you feel that 60 damage for a striker sucks that's your deal, but it is what it is.
Thirdly, if YOUR strikers can consistently do A LOT more that 60ish damage to a group of opponents, I'd like to see that.

Show me YOUR math, I seem to be the only one putting any numbers up.

Wow.... you have no idea what you are talking about. If you alone can actually take out all of the enemies, your DM is doing something incredibly wrong. If you think that the difference in damage you do is enough to drop the number of rounds by even more than 1, you are almost assuredly wrong. Do some math. Show me how you would do enough damage to make up for 4 rounds of your party's attacks. Show me how not giving your party all sorts of combat advantage around the battlefield through status effects, while allowing them to move and attack freely makes the party damage output even close to that of the control wizard's party. Oh, and then show me how not denying your opponents actions makes it so your party takes less damage (hell, I'll take equal).

I never said a cleric can take out enemies alone. But an enemy brought down to half hit points goes down a lot faster.

Fire Storm does about 1.5x to 2.5x more damage vs any other wizard daily of the same level. It also allows you to cast the spell on top of allies.

If you can't figure out on your own what 3 or 4 rounds of Fire Storm (115 damage AoE) does to 160-200 hit point normals, then I can't help you.

How long does it to kill 8 opponents:
who start with: 180 hit points? (1440 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 1: 120 hit points? (960 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 2: 102 hit points? (816 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 3: 83 hit points? (664 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 4: 65 hit points? (520 in group)

Now how long will it take with a wizard playing footsie with the same 8 opponents:
opponents start: 180 hit points. (1440 in group)
after Evard's, round 1: Hit 4 for 24 damage - 4@156 hp, 4@180 hp (1344 in group), depend on party for damage
play footsie, round 2: depend on party for damage, your contribution -> (1284 in group)
play footzie, round 3: depend on party for damage, your contribution -> (1224 in group)

Looks like a loooong battle

you get the picture...

Trying to play a striker as a wizard is a guaranteed way to be less effective.

They why on page 157 of the PHB does it say what it says under WAR WIZARDS? I guess all that stuff about "lots of damage" is just fluff.

 

[Roxlimn]

The weird part here is why anyone would compare a nondamage-oriented Wizard power for damage! That's just plain bizarre. Hey! Disintegrate does more damage than Warlock 19 powers! It does more damage than Rogue 19 powers. It's even better than the Ranger's Wounding Whirlwind! That's sacrilegious! Wizards are totally strikers, too!

Lesee... 180 damage? Not even 200?

Alright.
Round 1: Bolstered Prismatic Beams, use AP: 71 damage+daze
Round 1: Bolstered Combust: 41.5 damage
Round 2: Bolstered Thunderlance: 38 damage + push
Round 3: Winter's Wrath: 29 damage

Total: 179.5 damage in 3 rounds. Even if you only ever hit 4 out of 8 with all these powers, you will have taken out half the opposition by yourself in 3 rounds. Ownage.

 

[DemonLord57]

How long does it to kill 8 opponents:
who start with: 180 hit points? (1440 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 1: 120 hit points? (960 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 2: 102 hit points? (816 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 3: 83 hit points? (664 in group)
after Fire Storm, round 4: 65 hit points? (520 in group)

Now how long will it take with a wizard playing footsie with the same 8 opponents:
opponents start: 180 hit points. (1440 in group)
after Evard's, round 1: Hit 4 for 24 damage - 4@156 hp, 4@180 hp (1344 in group), depend on party for damage
play footsie, round 2: depend on party for damage, your contribution -> (1284 in group)
play footzie, round 3: depend on party for damage, your contribution -> (1224 in group)

Okay, let's examine your example. So, you say 8 standard monsters. No elites or solos, and a large number of low hitpoint enemies. So in other words, a very nice group for Firestorm. I'll assume, as you did, that all attacks hit.

Okay, so after you hit them the first time, let's assume that 2/3 of them have ranged attacks, so they retreat to outside the range. Let's assume the others attack you normally, and so take the Firestorm damage. Then the 2/3 use ranged attacks on you. You and your party completely mops up the 1/3 enemies in 1 or 2 rounds, with some assistance from your Firestorm. No more damage from Firestorm.

Okay, same situation but with Evard's. You trap about 4 enemies, (like you said) and since you can tell which ones are melee and which aren't (most likely), the ratio is more like 1/2 melee or more (probably more). So, you and your party mop up the rest of the encounter while they sit there, and the ranged guys inside also get some plinks at you and your party. Then, you all focus fire the ranged guys inside, before killing the melee guys. Some enemies could be pushed in the field or could escape, but these factors weren't considered.

We could instead consider a situation with elites and/or solos as well, where Evard's would have even more advantage.

They why on page 157 of the PHB does it say what it says under WAR WIZARDS? I guess all that stuff about "lots of damage" is just fluff.

Er, no. It's Wizards (the company) making a bad design choice, since the War Wizards aren't very good at their role (either Controller or what a War Wizard is supposed to do). If you are comparing a "pure damage" War Wizard to some cleric spells, yes the cleric has some pretty ridiculous advantages at some levels. But even then, it's only on a few levels, and it's with a suboptimal (IMO) path.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

59 AoE damage once a day?!?!? You're crowing about that? It's good, but it's not enough to bring a Cleric up to speed. At level 20, typical Standards have about 200 HP or so. 59 is only about a fourth of that, and this is a Daily - as in you only do it once a day.

Yes, I realize it's once a day, but your strikers will be hard pressed to even do 59 damage at 20th. And you do it in a burst 5 AREA

To compare, a Wizard can use his 15th level Daily - Wall of Ice to seperate an encounter in two, essentially halving the difficulty each in exchange for longer duration, plus damage shenanigans, of course. That's an I WIN power, because half an encounter is very easy. Very, very easy.

I agree, no one can control like a wizard.

You can post another 50 control powers of the wizard, I will still agree with you. Mongolia yells from the mountaintop: NO ONE CAN CONTROL LIKE THE WIZARD!!!

It's all patty cake, patty cake in the end. Someones get down and dirty and apply the damage to eliminate the threat.

When you finish doing your 59 points of damage, the baddies will still be standing. Now what? You're holding it as a minor action now - you'll have to sac move actions to use healing powers or you kiss their applications goodbye.

Clerics have do have AoE powers that damage and HEAL all in one. Mantle of Glory and Purifying Flame come to mind.

Plus you still have a MOVE action free once you spend your STANDARD on an attack/utility and the MINOR on your Fire Storm.

Alright. The crowd wants damage. You want damage? I'll give you damage.

Bolstered Prismatic Beams: 2d6+7/4/2 + 2d6 +7/4/2 + 2d10 + 10 (total ongoing) + daze. Total 1st round: 61 damage.

That's a lower level daily, and I'm not even maxing it. I'm just applying one feature from a common Wizard PP.

Ooh, that's cheating, you added a PP... and if I add a PP to my cleric, I'll wipe the floor with your wizard.

War Priest, Pit Fighter, and Angelic Avenger PP's are tremendous for the AoE war cleric. You don't want to mess with one of those.

Btw, Prismatic Beams is a beautiful spell, one of my favorites for a wizard. Good choice Roxlimn.

But I'll bite and play your game:
Bolstered Prismatic Beams vs Fire Storm (no PP applied for the cleric)
for starters BPB is range 0 and Fire Strom is range 10
1. Both spells do about the same damage, BPB doing ever slightly more upfront and FS looking better over time. Still not bad for a 15th daily vs a 19th daily.

BPB: round (1, 2, 3, etc): 61 +10.0/r (61, 71, 81, etc) +daze -cause wizard 11 damage
FS: round (1, 2, 3): 59 +18.5/r (59, 77, 96, etc)

2. but if you delve into the numbers further you will find that it's even worse for the wizard BPB. You have to consider those that you miss and those that you hit. After all it's just as easy to roll a 15 and hit as it is to roll a 5 and miss.

3. assuming a 50% hit/miss rate for all opponents. Note that most of the opponents you will be fighting grouped up in melee are fighter and brute types. These opponents have better fort defenses than reflex defenses and therefore will be harder to fully affect with BPB.

4. Fire Storm hits vs reflex.

5. Lets be nice to BPB and assume all defenses are the same number...

Bols Pris Beam on a miss does = 0 +0/r damage.
Fire Storm on a miss does 40.5/2 +18.5 = 39 +18.5/r damage.

6. We will now average the damages over the group when we factor 50% hit/miss. That is to say the average damage you will inflict per opponent (although some will take full, some, or none the average will be the same):

Bolstered Prismatic Beams: 30.5 +5/r (ave of 61 & 0 +ave of 10 & 0)
Fire Storm: 49 +18.5/r (ave of 59 & 39 +ave of 18.5 & 18.5)

In conclusion:
On average, Fire Storm over Bols Pris Beams will do 60% more damage initially and 470% more per round.

You don't want that? Well, what PP are we talking about? Battle Mage? Alright, let's do Closing Spell: average 57 damage all impact (damage on point).

You have me there, Closing Spell is a great spell, but...

You are limited by when you can use it those (when you run out of dailies), which can be a drag especially if you have a daily that you want to hold on too.

You don't want that? Let's do Spellstorm Mage with Extra Damage Action! +9 damage to standard actions on action point.

Ya, cleric gets that too: Warpriest or Pit Fighter

We're not even tapping encounter powers here. What kind of damage pressure can a Cleric put on already damaged dudes after the first round? 18.5 damage? Decent for a minor action, but a Wizard will get the job done before that's gotten anywhere.

At 1st and from 9th level on, clerics can choose AoE powers just like the wizard can. High level clerics won't pick any 3rd, 5th or 7th level powers anyway, so they can fill up all dailies and encounters with AoE effects.

Fire Storm is a bigger damage spell than any 1st thru 29th power a wizard has at his disposal.

The cleric at 29th level has a better power than Fire Storm, its called Astral Storm. He can choose both powers when he reaches 29th.

At 25th level the cleric has the daily: Sacred Word: 40 damage +stun (did someone say control?)

The line up goes:
19th daily choice: Fire Storm (2nd best nuke in PBH 4.0)
25th daily choice: Sacred Word (damage +stun)
29th daily choice: Astral Storm (1st best nuke in PHB 4.0)
pp daily choice: varies

Encounter powers you ask? theres at LEAST one AoE nuke per level upgrade.

Just for kicks:
Astral Storm (pimped out with the right PP and Symbol of Battle)
Practically UNRESISTABLE: 112.5 AoE damage initial +ongoing

That's what you call the nuclear option

 

[Roxlimn]

Mongolia Jones:

Coolness. It's on!

Yes, I realize it's once a day, but your strikers will be hard pressed to even do 59 damage at 20th. And you do it in a burst 5 AREA

The Striker powers really are problematic, IMO. They just don't do as much damage as they ought. The only one that comes close is Blade Cascade.

Clerics have do have AoE powers that damage and HEAL all in one. Mantle of Glory and Purifying Flame come to mind.

Plus you still have a MOVE action free once you spend your STANDARD on an attack/utility and the MINOR on your Fire Storm.

Sure, no prob. Let's see what you can do with a Cleric.

On average, Fire Storm over Bols Pris Beams will do 60% more damage initially and 470% more per round.

An interesting percentage. Of course, I am using an Action Point and an Action Surge for a Human, plus whatever other bonuses I can scrounge up. As we increase the probabilities, Fire Storm's advantage in Ref targeting and miss damage decreases.

You have me there, Closing Spell is a great spell, but...

You are limited by when you can use it those (when you run out of dailies), which can be a drag especially if you have a daily that you want to hold on too.

Naturally. And Fire Storm is limited by the fact that it's fire damage, can't be moved, and competes with healing actions. They all have limitations.

Ya, cleric gets that too: Warpriest or Pit Fighter

Touche. Raise you Maelstrom for positioning?

At 1st and from 9th level on, clerics can choose AoE powers just like the wizard can. High level clerics won't pick any 3rd, 5th or 7th level powers anyway, so they can fill up all dailies and encounters with AoE effects.

Fire Storm is a bigger damage spell than any 1st thru 29th power a wizard has at his disposal.

The cleric at 29th level has a better power than Fire Storm, its called Astral Storm. He can choose both powers when he reaches 29th.

At 25th level the cleric has the daily: Sacred Word: 40 damage +stun (did someone say control?)

The line up goes:
19th daily choice: Fire Storm (2nd best nuke in PBH 4.0)
25th daily choice: Sacred Word (damage +stun)
29th daily choice: Astral Storm (1st best nuke in PHB 4.0)
pp daily choice: varies

Encounter powers you ask? theres at LEAST one AoE nuke per level upgrade.

Just for kicks:
Astral Storm (pimped out with the right PP and Symbol of Battle)
Practically UNRESISTABLE: 112.5 AoE damage initial +ongoing

That's what you call the nuclear option

Nah. Prior to Firestorm, the Cleric's options just don't measure up. Heroic nuking is just a no-go for the Cleric. Fire Storm, Astral Storm, and Sacred Word are certainly formidable dailies, but they ARE dailies, and the Cleric has only a limited option for boosting or recovering them. They HAVE to be potent because there's not much else you can do with them.

What encounter effects does an Epic level Cleric have? Probably not that much, especially since we're not really emphasizing it that much.

My bid is Prismatic Spray. I contend that this is the better nuking power. Loses out on range, but more than makes up for it in control and boostability.

Question: if one of the attacks of a Prismatic Spray hits, do I add a Bolstering Blood again? I was only counting it once, though.


Why is this power better as a nuking power? Well, once you're done with Astral Storm, that's it - you're done. Next power on the AP is Firestorm, and you can sustain both, but you'll only have a Standard left after (and you'll be tapped for the day).

Using Archspell, we can make Prismatic Spray into an Encounter power. On the first round, we burn the AP and nuke the enemy with it twice, using Soul Burn to regen. That's 80.5 damage average per power plus the stun. If I can boost my to-hit appreciably, I can meet your 112.5 eventually since the max damage here is 161 damage on the first round.

Then Spell Focus comes into effect and the stun and 15 fire ongoing kick in. If I have a Doomsayer ally, so much the better! That's an insta-win already, as long as I can get my to-hit high enough.

Best of all, he can do it again! Use Shape magic to regen Soul Burn and do it again next encounter! Then use Destructive Salutation and Prismatic Spray!

I'm not even getting into the encounter powers here, and we have some really powerful options at the Epic levels - stun is a nonstarter. There are so many Wizard stun powers at Epic it's hard to avoid them.

You want a nuke option? THAT's a nuke option. Pump the to-hit and hit hard with the Sprays then go to town with Blackfire, Acid Storm, and Combust. Do it all the time. Every encounter. Paint the town ROYGBIV.

You just can't do this with a Cleric. Heck, with a Cleric and Wizard acting together, most measly 300 hp critter shouldn't last 3 rounds!