Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[Hypersmurf]

Not at all, while I said about if you wish to be precise 2d4 is superior to 1d8 and it would be strange to turn that small advantage in to a disadvantage by adding Vorpal to the weapons in question. The RAW simple extend that advantage, where as your interpretation would reverse it.

So what about 2d4 compared to 1d10 or 1d12?

Doesn't your interpretation take the small advantage the 1d10 has over 2d4, and turn it into a disadvantage? After all, the average roll on 2d4 is 5, and on 1d10 is 5.5 (advantage 1d10), but if we permit rerolls if either d4 comes up 4, or if the d10 comes up 10, the average roll becomes 6.67 for the 2d4, but only 6.11 for the d10 (advantage 2d4).

Rather than simply extending the d10's advantage, your interpretation reverses it! Wouldn't that be... 'strange'?

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

Unfortunately, the Page 219 example has two explanations. 1) That's indeed what they meant, and the Falchion's 'Damage Die' is '2d4' and 2) bad editing as it seems to conflict with examples given elsewhere.

Until that's settled, there's no really good way of answering that except via DM decision.

Of course, for me personally, I'd let the Falchion use the Vorpal power if either die rolled a 4 (which, as Hyp points out) makes it better than the 1d8 Longsword. The rationale I have for that is the Longsword is One-Handed and the Falchion is Two-Handed, so it makes sense to me that it should benefit more from Vorpal than the Longsword. YMMV.

 

[Trebor62]

Yup. The problem is neither of us is comparing apples to apples, but apple to oranges or pears etc. The Falchion or the oversized weapons use 2d? which is a bell curve verses the straight distribution of the 1d? weapons. Actually WOTC has mixed them together.


But here is a another thought, compare a human sized 1d12 great axe to a Gargantuan 2d10 great axe. Using the max dice criteria the human axe would Vorpal better than eight times more often than the Garganuan axe 1 in 12 verses 1 in 100. Using max die it would be 1 in 12 verses about 1 in 10; yes I am pairing up the 20 d10's to 10 2d10 results with the 1 in 10 to keep things equivant in terms of doing starting damage i.e. d12 verses 2d10.

So while the Falchion is a little strange at the bottom of the scale, things are even worse at the top using the max damage. Granted the gargantuan vorpal great axe may never even be seen in a typical campaign.

Any way its late here and we are going away tommorrow, but its been a lot of fun batting this back and forth with you Hyp thanks!

ps what do you make of bastard sword verses the great sword in game terms? I suspect the Falchion and bastard swords were either late additions or shoe horned in.

 

[AtomicPope]

When I saw the Vorpal Weapon I wasn't miffed. It was when I saw Gauntlets of Destruction level 18 item that my eyebrow raised. Really, this is the culprit. The gauntlets are not a magic weapon but a weapon adder. Consider that Rogues and Rangers can use Close Blasts or Bursts. In every "game breaking" Vorpal combo the Gauntlets are employed. This is not by accident. Without the Gauntlets the Vorpal weapon wouldn't look so over-the-top.

The easy fix is to remove Gauntlets of Destruction from the Magic Item list.

 

[ryryguy]

Except that vorpal weapons also deal +(bonus)d12 damage on a crit.

So do those bonus critical dice also explode? I'm not sure that's clear from the rules as written...

(edit) I see other posts interpreting the crit dice as "any damage die" that triggers the vorpal power. That makes sense to me.

 

[The Little Raven]

If I deal a d6 through a class feature, that's a damage die.

But it's not a damage die for the weapon. It's a damage die for a class feature.

 

[silentounce]

Just because no one's done it yet in one post.

Here are the average results using the proper math as given here under the Open Ended Rolls heading: http://www.rpg.net/columns/rollthebones/rollthebones2.phtml

Base averages
d4 2.5
d6 3.5
d8 4.5
2d4 5
d10 5.5
d12 6.5
2d6 7

Vorpal average and % increase over base average damage
d4 3.33 33%
d6 4.2 20%
d8 5.14 14%
2d4 5.33 7% rerolling only an 8
2d4 6.66 33% rerolling each 4 individually
d10 6.11 11%
d12 7.09 9%
2d6 8.4 20%

So, interpreting 2d4 as a die and only rerolling on an 8 keeps the 2d4 more in line with d12, but it brings it further from everything else because the d12 has the smallest increase. However, rerolling all the 4s makes 2d4 superior to every other die type.

Let's use the +6 weapon example.
Nonvorpal
4[W] = 26
Rerolling only on an 8
4[W] = 27.33 damage
Rerolling each 4 individually
4[W] = 32.66

Personally, I think an extra 1.33 damage per attack not accounting for the extra crit damage is a pretty weak boost to go from a level 26 weapon to a level 30. The basic +6 gives you an average 21 extra on a crit, the vorpal gives an average 33 extra. That doesn't account for how to adjucate crit damage with the rerolling property. And then there's also the daily power.

One more thing, no one has really commented on the bell curve aspect of the 2d4. People have mentoined it, but not really gone in depth. I'm sure we all know that rolling more dice gives a staggered distribution of possible outcomes with a higher probability of values in the middle than at the ends. Well, let's look at a weapon with exploding dice.

The odds that a d12 exploding weapon will give a result of 21 or higher is 1 in 36. That's 1/12 x 1/3, or 2.78%. Now, looking at 2d4, percentage chance of getting 21 or higher on one roll, when exploding both dice is .83%.

Correct me if I'm wrong please. I don't have a PhD in mathematics or statistics, but I know enough to figure the above out.

This just shows that average damage is only one means of comparing weapons. The likelihood of scoring a lot of damage on a single attack is far greater when rolling a single large die. We've known this for a long time and it still applies here.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just because no one's done it yet in one post.

Here are the average results using the proper math as given here under the Open Ended Rolls heading: http://www.rpg.net/columns/rollthebones/rollthebones2.phtml

Base averages
d4 2.5
d6 3.5
d8 4.5
2d4 5
d10 5.5
d12 6.5
2d6 7

Vorpal average and % increase over base average damage
d4 3.33 33%
d6 4.2 20%
d8 5.14 14%
2d4 5.33 7% rerolling only an 8
2d4 6.66 33% rerolling each 4 individually
d10 6.11 11%
d12 7.09 9%
2d6 8.4 20%

Actually, 2d4 once vorpal'd is superior to d10, but not to d12 nor 2d6 It gets the largest % increase, but given that it started with less damage than other weapons in its class, that's a misleading figure.

This is what is important:

2d4 does less than a 1d12 weapon without vorpal. 2d4 does less than a 1d12 weapon with vorpal.

 

[AtomicPope]

Actually, 2d4 once vorpal'd is superior to d10, but not to d12 nor 2d6 It gets the largest % increase, but given that it started with less damage than other weapons in its class, that's a misleading figure.

This is what is important:

2d4 does less than a 1d12 weapon without vorpal. 2d4 does less than a 1d12 weapon with vorpal.

True.

The problem isn't Vorpal, it's Gauntlets of Desctruction + Vorpal. The benefit of rerolling 1's on a D4 until no 1's appear with exploding Vorpal dice is what creates the radical value shift.

The solution is outlaw Gauntlets of Destruction (which BTW can be made at 18th level instead of 30th level).

 

[silentounce]

True.

The problem isn't Vorpal, it's Gauntlets of Desctruction + Vorpal. The benefit of rerolling 1's on a D4 until no 1's appear with exploding Vorpal dice is what creates the radical value shift.

The solution is outlaw Gauntlets of Destruction (which BTW can be made at 18th level instead of 30th level).

Well, since you basically asked for it...

Vorpal plus GD average damages:

d4 4.5
d6 5
d8 5.83
2d4 5.33 exploding only when 8 is rolled on 2dice and no rerolling of 1s, because 2 is the lowest possible result of 2dice
2d4 5.57 exploding only when 8 is rolled on 2dice and rerolling only when 2 is rolled on 2dice
2d4 6.75 exploding only when 8 is rolled on 2dice but rerolling any 1 rolled in a given set of two dice
2d4 9 exploding every 4 rolled and rerolling every 1
d10 6.75
d12 7.7
2d6 10

Pick your poison.