Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[lutecius]

To be frank, I think of this in terms of martial arts katas. Each particular maneuver requires a different pattern of movements and thus strains a different set of muscles. In addition, logically speaking, if you develop a fighting style built around a set of maneuvers that are so straining that that you can't perform them again until you rest, you would make sure that each one strains a different muscle to maximize your flexibility.

I practiced karate as a kid. When a particular move hurted before i was completely exhausted, it meant i was doing it wrong or didn't have a proper warm up (which means using those muscles even more)

I did a little judo too (my father was a judo instructor). Some grapples would cause a greater strain, but once my arms or shoulders started to hurt, I was pretty helpless because there weren't many moves i could do.

Again, being too "tired" to execute a low level attack but being perfectly able to pull off a high level one doesn't make sense to me. Specific muscle strain for every single power, is a poor explanation.

That would work, too. After all, just because a force is wierd and vancian-ish doesnt mean that it has to be magical. Stress and adrenaline can cause people to do things that they are not normally capable of, and while it may be possible for a person to train himself to the point where he can reliably reach that heightened state once per day, perhaps for some mysterious reason, it simply isn't possible to do it again without resting first.

The SW force you mentionned in your examples is a magic substitute.
Stress and adrenaline don't affect a particular muscle, let alone a particular skill, independently.
A "mysterious force" affecting physical actions like that would have to be supernatural or imply radically different physics in your game world.

That's a pretty absolute statement, no? I'll accept that balance could have been the primary concern, but I doubt that it was the only concern or that no effort whatsoever was made to design martial daily powres that make sense. In any case, if the problem is with specific martial dalies rather than with the concept of martial dailies in the first place, perhaps we could discuss what sort of martial dailies would be acceptable instead.

I said "powers that make sense as dailies" (not that i think that all powers make a lot of sense in general, mind you.)
Do you really find that daily powers as described generally have more in-game reasons to be dailies than say, encounter powers?
If they did, i would find martial dailies more palatable, but i don't think hard daily or enconter limits are a good decision. Like i said, i'd be much more confortable with power points and a cost for each power. That would be more elegant and could simulate fatigue.

 

[lutecius]

Of course it's a good thing. It means the same thing can be used by different people who can have different takes on the matter.

Much like abstract hit points can be used by different people, sometimes in the very same game, to narrate different things. One guy is like Aragorn, who is beaten up and covered in mud and blood all the time, even after taking a bath. Another guy is like Legolas, who has perfect hair even after being KO'ed by an axe. That's the beauty of an abstract system.

A fix to HPs and armor is something I've been hoping for since AD&D1. Without going as graphic and specific as wfrp, i'd expect Legolas to be actually injured, not just demoralized by an axe (well, if we're talking about Orlando Bloom i'd want something far worse than wfrp) In that respect, the bloodied mechanic is a good change.

More generally, abstract is ok as long as it isn't counterintuitive.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To be frank, I think of this in terms of martial arts katas.

Fine.

Try to learn a kata doing it once per day. Try developing the muscle memory required to do it by doing it once per day.

Try learning the kata from a master who can only illustrate it once per day.

Or as has been said:

Again, being too "tired" to execute a low level attack but being perfectly able to pull off a high level one doesn't make sense to me. Specific muscle strain for every single power, is a poor explanation.

Exactly.

4Ed daily martial powers strain my credulity.

I guess that's it for my credulity today.

How could they? In all seriousness, how is it possible to write fluff that everyone will agree "makes sense"?

Probably pretty easily with a bit of creativity.

Lets see what I can do on the fly...

Villain's Menace
"You muster your martial strength and inner force of will, combining them with singular focus to unbalance your opponent, leaving him vulnerable to telling strikes..."

To me, that sounds like something a bit more limited than a mere series of blows, and at least implies the supernatural.

Perhaps one power taps into the "souls of all your warrior ancestors before you.." while another reads like "an unseen force guides your hand as you whirl about, causing blinding injuries to the foes pressing in around you."

Give me the same amount of time to tweek them as WotC did, and I could probably come up with a series of descriptions that not only sound different from each other, but hang together as a unified whole.

Instead, there is no real difference between at wills, encounters and dailies that makes dailies stand out as needing limitation.

If that doesn't work for you, that's fine, but it can be done that way if you want it to.

Again, we're not talking about HR, we're discussing the merits & believability of martial dailies RAW.

If I want to, I can make a HR that says that all martial dailies summon a rain of bunnies when used.

 

[Nifft]

Multi-quote works, and makes it a lot easier to figure out who you're responding to.

Perhaps one power taps into the "souls of all your warrior ancestors before you.." while another reads like "an unseen force guides your hand as you whirl about, causing blinding injuries to the foes pressing in around you."

This is your idea of a non-magical power? Huh.

Also: my Warforged doesn't have any ancestors.

Give me the same amount of time to tweek them as WotC did, and I could probably come up with a series of descriptions that not only sound different from each other, but hang together as a unified whole.

Do it. I'm sure you'll have some support.

Cheers, -- N

 

[LostSoul]

Again, we're not talking about HR, we're discussing the merits & believability of martial dailies RAW.

I wasn't talking about house ruling things; I was talking about how you describe things in play. Describing things generally isn't considered a house rule. Are you suggesting I have to read the flavour text off each power when I use it, or else I'm not playing by the RAW?

If I want to, I can make a HR that says that all martial dailies summon a rain of bunnies when used.

Yes, yes you could. If you find that works for your group, go for it.

In my game, the cleric who worships the Raven Queen has ravens that fly out and attack for him when he uses his "laser" powers. That's not a house rule, that's just interesting description of using a power.

 

[FireLance]

I practiced karate as a kid. When a particular move hurted before i was completely exhausted, it meant i was doing it wrong or didn't have a proper warm up (which means using those muscles even more)

I did a little judo too (my father was a judo instructor). Some grapples would cause a greater strain, but once my arms or shoulders started to hurt, I was pretty helpless because there weren't many moves i could do.

Again, being too "tired" to execute a low level attack but being perfectly able to pull off a high level one doesn't make sense to me. Specific muscle strain for every single power, is a poor explanation.

As long as it works as an explanation, it allows me to suspend disbelief enough that I can enjoy the game.

The SW force you mentionned in your examples is a magic substitute.
Stress and adrenaline don't affect a particular muscle, let alone a particular skill, independently.
A "mysterious force" affecting physical actions like that would have to be supernatural or imply radically different physics in your game world.

And why not - it's a fantasy world, after all, and in 4e, the lines between magical and non-magical abilities are quite indistinct. Even in 3e, there were non-magical (extraordinary) abilities that probably do not exist in the real world, like regeneration. The fact that it's a fantasy world means that our real-world experience does not map perfectly. I'm quite willing to accept that martial dailies, whether they are quasi-magical or whether they are non-magical but push the body beyond the normal physical limits, work according to different rules from what we usually experience in the real world.

I said "powers that make sense as dailies" (not that i think that all powers make a lot of sense in general, mind you.)
Do you really find that daily powers as described generally have more in-game reasons to be dailies than say, encounter powers?

The fact that all the dailies tend to have a greater in-game effect is good enough for me. This, to me, represents the character going beyond his normal physical abilities and thus it makes sense that he can only do it a limited number of times per day.

If they did, i would find martial dailies more palatable, but i don't think hard daily or enconter limits are a good decision. Like i said, i'd be much more confortable with power points and a cost for each power. That would be more elegant and could simulate fatigue.

I agree that it would be a workable system, but it would require more bookkeeping in actual play. It's the main disadvantage of spell point systems compared to spell slot systems in general.

 

[FireLance]

Fine.

Try to learn a kata doing it once per day. Try developing the muscle memory required to do it by doing it once per day.

Try learning the kata from a master who can only illustrate it once per day.

Makes me wonder how wizards and clerics learn their dailies, then.

I suppose it is always possible to go through the motions and make several practice attempts on a daily basis before you get it right. Once you've got it right, you've "mastered" it, and you can do it again after some rest.

 

[hong]

A fix to HPs and armor is something I've been hoping for since AD&D1. Without going as graphic and specific as wfrp, i'd expect Legolas to be actually injured, not just demoralized by an axe (well, if we're talking about Orlando Bloom i'd want something far worse than wfrp)

No, you want Legolas to have perfect hair even after being hit by an axe. That's what being bishi entails. If you didn't want to be bishi, you wouldn't play Legolas.

 

[Shadeydm]

No, you want Legolas to have perfect hair even after being hit by an axe. That's what being bishi entails. If you didn't want to be bishi, you wouldn't play Legolas.

What's a bishi?

 

[Fifth Element]

What's a bishi?

Google and/or Wikipedia is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishi