Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[lutecius]

I'd rather the desginers balanced the powers - something that seems hard to do - instead of taking the time to have them "make sense." I can do that much better than they can. It's my game and my taste, after all; I know what makes sense to me, and I will go with that.

Well, good for you. But isn't it a bit off topic?

 

[FireLance]

Which one? The one where each power strains a particular muscle independently of any other (doesn’t make much sense to me)

To be frank, I think of this in terms of martial arts katas. Each particular maneuver requires a different pattern of movements and thus strains a different set of muscles. In addition, logically speaking, if you develop a fighting style built around a set of maneuvers that are so straining that that you can't perform them again until you rest, you would make sure that each one strains a different muscle to maximize your flexibility.

or the one where martial powers are actually regulated by some weird vancian-ish force (hardly "non-magical")?

That would work, too. After all, just because a force is wierd and vancian-ish doesnt mean that it has to be magical. Stress and adrenaline can cause people to do things that they are not normally capable of, and while it may be possible for a person to train himself to the point where he can reliably reach that heightened state once per day, perhaps for some mysterious reason, it simply isn't possible to do it again without resting first.

The problem is that no effort whatsoever was made to design martial daily powers that make sense as dailies. Balance was the only concern.

That's a pretty absolute statement, no? I'll accept that balance could have been the primary concern, but I doubt that it was the only concern or that no effort whatsoever was made to design martial daily powres that make sense. In any case, if the problem is with specific martial dalies rather than with the concept of martial dailies in the first place, perhaps we could discuss what sort of martial dailies would be acceptable instead.

 

[Nifft]

And that's a problem. Actually, that's THE problem.

The flavor/narration of the powers contain no hook to hang the 1/day limitation upon.

How could they? In all seriousness, how is it possible to write fluff that everyone will agree "makes sense"? Look at this thread, if nothing else -- I can't see a single bit of fluff that isn't contested by someone.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How could they? In all seriousness, how is it possible to write fluff that everyone will agree "makes sense"? Look at this thread, if nothing else -- I can't see a single bit of fluff that isn't contested by someone.

Cheers, -- N

Or look at the setting fluff. Some seem to hate the new cosmology, I love it...

 

[lutecius]

I am not talking about letting you use the daily power again. I am only talking about letting you re-use the "flavor"/narration of the power again.

If power descriptions are going to be so flexible and interchangeable, what’s the point of having them in the first place? or colourful names if they don't fit the effects? or power sources? or even classes?
Power description is one of the few things that still differentiate classes with the same role. It’s not like the mechanical effects are that different.

The mapping works this way: If you use a power (at-will, encounter or daily), what happens in the game world matches the power description. But if you do not use a particular power, or a power that has an ambiguous description, you can describe what happens in-game however you want (though most will probably try to stay "reasonable", and not describe a simple basic attack as you jumping 20 feet in the air and crushing the enemies bodies into the ground, where he then stands up staggering... and takes 3 points of damage. )

Who is going to decide what description is appropriate if there are no guidelines? As a dm, adjudicating this on top of every else would quickly become erm... unfun. As a player, it would also devaluate the coolness/kick-assitude of my "real" dailies.

Nobody is ever going to stop you using a non-reliable daily exploit against minions. This doesn't change the fact that the mapping from metagame rules to in-game outcomes is not one-to-one.

You keep saying this like a good thing. Aside from ellipses and skipping over uninteresting details, I don’t think it should be a design goal.

Yes, it should always be limited to a single, daily use because the metagame implications of that use are of greater import than the metagame results of other ways to describe your in-game actions.

I still believe designers could have found another way to balance that. It's just that the "simulationist" aspect didn't seem important to them. Mearl’s recent references to boardgames just reinforce this feeling.

 

[hong]

You keep saying this like a good thing. Aside from ellipses and skipping over uninteresting details, I don’t think it should be a design goal.

Of course it's a good thing. It means the same thing can be used by different people who can have different takes on the matter.

Much like abstract hit points can be used by different people, sometimes in the very same game, to narrate different things. One guy is like Aragorn, who is beaten up and covered in mud and blood all the time, even after taking a bath. Another guy is like Legolas, who has perfect hair even after being KO'ed by an axe. That's the beauty of an abstract system.

 

[LostSoul]

If power descriptions are going to be so flexible and interchangeable, what’s the point of having them in the first place? or colourful names if they don't fit the effects? or power sources? or even classes?

Power description is one of the few things that still differentiate classes with the same role. It’s not like the mechanical effects are that different.

1. Descriptions are useful as a starting point.
2. Colourful names are cooler and easier to remember that "Power 9".
3. Power sources are fluff describing how your powers work. Change it if you don't like it - it's only fluff.
4. Classes have different abilities and do different things, even within the same role.

Who is going to decide what description is appropriate if there are no guidelines? As a dm, adjudicating this on top of every else would quickly become erm... unfun. As a player, it would also devaluate the coolness/kick-assitude of my "real" dailies.

1. The group uses its own guidelines based on personal taste.
2. The DM doesn't have to adjudicate description because it doesn't have a mechanical effect.
3. Your "real" dailies do cool things - in mechanical terms.

 

[ST]

I still believe designers could have found another way to balance that. It's just that the "simulationist" aspect didn't seem important to them. Mearl’s recent references to boardgames just reinforce this feeling.

Yep, that's exactly right. They didnt' play up the "sim" aspect in the rules; if you want to map things into the shared imaginary fantasy world in you and your friends' heads, you and your friends have to do that part yourself.

Although really, the split of opinion seems to be that the folks who view it as "you get to do that part yourself" love it, and the folks who view it as "you have to do that part yourself, what a hassle" hate it.

So they decided some powers could be used basically once per day. Yes, they could have come up with some fatigue/stress system, used action points, yadda yadda... to have some way that daily powers were effectively one use per day. Instead, they wrote "One use per day". If some mechanical justification for that is really important to you, you're welcome to invent one. They just didn't see a need

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If power descriptions are going to be so flexible and interchangeable, what’s the point of having them in the first place? or colourful names if they don't fit the effects? or power sources? or even classes?
Power description is one of the few things that still differentiate classes with the same role. It’s not like the mechanical effects are that different.

Because people like some default flavor. And the point is: The fluff of the power stays the same. Just when you use something that doesn't have a specific fluff attached to it do you use what you like. At least, by default.

Who is going to decide what description is appropriate if there are no guidelines? As a dm, adjudicating this on top of every else would quickly become erm... unfun. As a player, it would also devaluate the coolness/kick-assitude of my "real" dailies.

Who cares? It doesn't affect the game balance or playability. The ones who are the members of the group, and they describe it according to their group style. And if they haven't found one yet, they can experiment until they found a flavor they like. Without ever breaking the system.

You keep saying this like a good thing. Aside from ellipses and skipping over uninteresting details, I don’t think it should be a design goal.

It gives more flexibility on how to narrate the rules. How to even differentiate two mechanically 100 % identical characters, if you like.

I still believe designers could have found another way to balance that. It's just that the "simulationist" aspect didn't seem important to them. Mearl’s recent references to boardgames just reinforce this feeling.

It is certainly true that the simulationist aspect has become less interesting for the designers. But I don't trust that "simulationist" ever achieves balance without heavily constraining what world is described - When you use the strained "muscle-group" concept to explain what daily powers represent, you have one such incidence. Vancian magic in D&D assumes a specific type of magic that puts serious constraints on how the game world magic can work. It is incompatible with a lot of fantasy worlds. It seems far more flexible to create a system focused on balance and use some lenience in player and DM narration of game mechanics to achieve whatever world you want.

 

[Umbran]

3.) Nice try, cute, but don't bother, I'm better at this than you are.

You be that dismissive and rude again, and you'll be given reason to understand that the mods are better at this than you are.

Let me be clear to everyone - we expect you to show respect for the people here. Our patience for this kind of ego-tripping is short indeed.