Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Nifft]

No, someone said that there is something going on in martial dailies that is supernatural, even though there is nothing supernatural even implied in the fluff.

So I quickly provided an example of how one could imply the supernatural given a few minutes, much less the months the 4Ed design team had.

Incorrect. I asked you how it would be possible to make fluff that was plausible to everyone. You quoted me above your reply which included "ancestor spirits" and "unknown forces".

So I'll ask again. Can you come up with flavor for any one Martial Daily which is both:
1/ accepted (even if not particularly liked) by everyone; and
2/ a plausible limit on the power's use to whatever the mechanics specify?

(If you're serious about the project you proposed, you'll need to start somewhere.)

Ask youself- are the daily exploits really so powerful that they should be limited to one use/day even for paragon and epic characters?

Take a better look at the Paragon powers and some Epic Destiny features. At high levels, you can recover Dailies (as in, use them more than once per day).

Cheers, -- N

 

[LostSoul]

Does that seem logical? To me, that's sloppy. It also puts a hole in the "exhaustion" model.

Yeah, it seems logical. He's awesome enough now that he can do that 1/encounter, and 1/day he can do it twice per encounter! Maybe not as awesome the 2nd time per encounter, but he's tired and it is hard to pull off.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

He's awesome enough now that he can do that 1/encounter, and 1/day he can do it twice per encounter!

No, that is not what happens.

He's awesome enough that he can pull off the more difficult maneuver 1/encounter, but for some reason, he can only pull off the slightly less awesome maneuver 1/day.

For it to be logical, he would be able to pull off the less difficult maneuver 1/encounter, and 1/day, he could put a little extra into it.

Incorrect. I asked you how it would be possible to make fluff that was plausible to everyone. You quoted me above your reply which included "ancestor spirits" and "unknown forces".

No, not incorrect.

There are several approaches people have tried in this thread to justify the existence of martial dailies. Several people in this thread have asserted a supernatural component to dailies exists as part of a way to justify their limitation. Others have asserted that there are RW justifications, like exhaustion, strain, or the metaconcepts of "many tries with one success," and "you use the maneuvers described in the fluff many times, but only once do you get the described mechanical benefit."

Clearly, if those represent the actual views of those respondents vis a vis martial dailies (as opposed to suggestions to those like me about how to correct our view of the game), then there is no way to describe martial dailies in a way that will satisfy everyone.

Especially if you're like me and find each of those justifications wanting on some level.

So instead, I just rolled up a whole bunch of the thread into one response, leaning heavily towards the supernatural, since that is one of the major ideas that keeps cropping up.

But lets be honest- the fluff doesn't match the ability on most of the ones I've seen.

Brute Strike- the 3[W] one I mentioned above- reads:

"You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow"

"3[W]" is all that is granted. No damage to armor in any way. No lingering effects from shattering bone.

Mountain Breaking Blow- the encounter exploit mentioned above (and erroneously thought was 15th level but is actually 17th- reads:

"You land a ringing blow, then push your enemy back without giving other nearby enemies the opportunity to strike you"

You get 3[W] and a 3 square shift of your foe. No bar, modifier or anything of the sort regarding attacks of opportunity.

So I'll ask again. Can you come up with flavor for any one Martial Daily which is both:
1/ accepted (even if not particularly liked) by everyone; and
2/ a plausible limit on the power's use to whatever the mechanics specify?

1) No, because I haven't seen a single reason to limit any non-magical martial abilities to 1/day. (Assuming I'm part of "everybody.")

2) Yes. Lets try:

a) the power is usable 1/day against foes in the same tier (Heroic, Paragon, Epic) as the user, per encounter against foes 1 tier below the user, and at will against foes 2 tiers below the user. (Note: this modification could also be used in conjunction with per encounter abilities, meaning that an Epic PC could use all of his martial abilities at will against Heroic tier foes.)

If the above is too beefy, use a 1/day, 3/day, per encounter tiered structure.

b) power is normally usable 1/day. PC may make another attempt to use the power by making a roll (math blah blah blah) difficulty to use it again. Regardless of success, it may not be used more than once against a particular foe in 1 day.

c) do away with martial dailies completely, and just give warrior types additional (lower powered but same mechanics) per-encounter abilities.

In the alternative, some could be full-powered, but situationally limited- only if foe is bloodied, only against marked opponent who has used all of his healing surges, usable again only after you are bloodied and have used your last healing surge, whatever.

I'm sure if I had some months to do this, rather than some stolen moments on July 4th, I could come up with more and/or better. Especially if I was being paid to design the game.

 

[FireLance]

First, the original question was whether the martial dailies affect suspension of disbelief. Clearly, for some at least, it does.

No argument there. Of course, others are quite happy with the explanations they've managed to come up for them.

There are several problems with this enumerated above, not the least of which is that the martial daily mechanic doesn't conform to reality at all.

Which is not a problem if you can accept that martial dailies go beyond what people can normally do in real life.

There is a 1st level daily power that gives 3[W]- pretty valuable, and one might see how that might be worthy of limiting it in a 1st level PC.

There is a higher level encounter exploit that gives 3[W] + a 3 square shift. Its the lesser exploit+.

Both have fluff describing them simply as tremendously powerful blows.

I have no problem with that higher level exploit. But now we have a higher level encounter exploit that gives a better benefit than a 1st level daily exploit...

The ability that is sooooo dificult to perform, sooooo exhausting has a more powerful cousin that is a per encounter exploit for the more powerful PC.

But he can still only perform the lesser maneuver 1 per day.

Does that seem logical? To me, that's sloppy. It also puts a hole in the "exhaustion" model.

I assume you are comparing brute strike (1st-level daily) to mountain breaking blow (17th-level encounter)? Mountain breaking blow does deal as much damage as brute strike and has the added benefit of being able to allow the fighter to push an opponent and shift himself. However, it isn't reliable. It is arguably better than brute strike, but it isn't better in all ways. They are thus arguably different maneuvers, and although the flavor descriptions are variants on the theme of "you hit someone really hard", I don't find it particularly hard to accept that as you get more experienced, you are able to develop a different, more effective but less tiring technique.

That 4Ed daily, had the designers thought about it, should have been a daily for low-level PCs only. They could have added a single line of text- "This exploit becomes an encounter exploit at 15th level, and adds + 3 shift when used."

...

Ask youself- are the daily exploits really so powerful that they should be limited to one use/day even for paragon and epic characters?

The fact that you trade lower-lever powers for higher-level powers allows you to keep your daily powers relevant and powerful enough to be limited to once per day, relatively speaking. This can also be used to represent the powers themselves improving over level (though admittedly, not perfectly).

 

[LostSoul]

No, that is not what happens.

If this is in my game, that is what happens because I say it does. It holds up for me, hopefully the group, so it happens.

He's awesome enough that he can pull off the more difficult maneuver 1/encounter, but for some reason, he can only pull off the slightly less awesome maneuver 1/day.

For it to be logical, he would be able to pull off the less difficult maneuver 1/encounter, and 1/day, he could put a little extra into it.

I would probably just say that it's the same in-game maneuver he's pulling off. When I, as the player, use the weaker daily power, I'd say that he messed it up a bit this time. Or he's too tired to use it again this encounter for its full effect.

That makes in-game sense to me, which is what we're talking about, right?

 

[hong]

I've played my share of froofy elves and insisted on having a high charisma even back when it was a useless stat.

I still wanted an axe to deal actual injuries, even if that meant blood in my mullet.

Which just means that you, personally, would be using the abstract hit point framework to narrate blood and guts everywhere. Your point being...?

 

[hong]

1) No, because I haven't seen a single reason to limit any non-magical martial abilities to 1/day. (Assuming I'm part of "everybody.")

There are plenty of reasons to limit martial abilities to 1/day. These include balance and simulationism.

 

[GnomeWorks]

There are plenty of reasons to limit martial abilities to 1/day. These include balance...

Which is a legit reason, though I may disagree with the conclusion made in 4e.

...and simulationism.

For certain values/varieties of simulationism, sure.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If this is in my game, that is what happens because I say it does.

DM fiat over actual logic and internal consistency isn't good enough to justify the mechanic as being a good one.

The fact is, the mechanically superior ability has a per encounter limit- IOW, it is limited only by how many encounters the DM throws at the party.

And the mechanically inferior ability has an absolute, hard cap of 1/day for both a Level 1 PC and a Level 30 one (and all points in between).

When I, as the player, use the weaker daily power, I'd say that he messed it up a bit this time. Or he's too tired to use it again this encounter for its full effect.

Then the DM tosses you another encounter that day, and he pulls off the better one again. Suddenly, he's not exhausted?

Then a second unexpected encounter pops up...again, the encounter power is used.

The exhaustion model doesn't hold up.

And the "I goofed" model? Ew!

Which is not a problem if you can accept that martial dailies go beyond what people can normally do in real life.

Barring the inclusion of the supernatural, I don't.

These include balance and simulationism.

If an ability is soooo powerful that even a 30th level PC

"...your character's capabilities are truly superheroic...you travel across nations in the blink of an eye...navigate otherworldly realms...battle savage pit fiends, the ferocious tarrasque, sinister sorrowsworn deathlords, bloodthirsty lich archmages, and even demon princes...the dragons you encounter are ancient wyrms...whose waking threatens the world." 4Ed PHB p29

can only do it once a day, how, logically, does it make sense that a 1st level PC

"You move around on foot or on a relatively mundane mout such as a horse...but you're still basically earthbound...you can expect to fight sneaky goblins, savage orcs, ferocious wolves...if you face a dragon, it is a young one still searching for a lair..." 4Ed PHB p28

can do it equally as well? Or at all?

I don't see any real simulationism and only nominal mechanical balance exists here.

And nominal mechanical balance isn't sufficient for me.

 

[LostSoul]

DM fiat over actual logic and internal consistency isn't good enough to justify the mechanic as being a good one.

I wasn't talking about DM fiat - I was talking about a player describing the actions of his PC in the game world, in a logical and internally consistent way. (Logical and consistent to the game world, not the metagame.)

The fact is, the mechanically superior ability has a per encounter limit- IOW, it is limited only by how many encounters the DM throws at the party.

And the mechanically inferior ability has an absolute, hard cap of 1/day for both a Level 1 PC and a Level 30 one (and all points in between).

And how does this determine what happens in the game world?

Then the DM tosses you another encounter that day, and he pulls off the better one again. Suddenly, he's not exhausted?

Then a second unexpected encounter pops up...again, the encounter power is used.

The exhaustion model doesn't hold up.

And the "I goofed" model? Ew!

If you don't like the exhaustion model, don't use it. I think it's fine that he's not exhausted after a short breather.

Same thing goes for the "I goofed" model. I don't know why you don't like it, though.