Judicious use and description of Minions [Edit-Now asking for stat analysis]

[lukelightning]

Yes, it does -- but in proportion. Most normal non-minion critters will get an extra half-a-hit or so from +5 hit points; minions get the same benefit.

I've considered making temporary hit points an all-or-nothing kind of deal for minions: if they have temp HP, they lose all of them on a hit. So I only have to track two states (per minion) and one number: alive, alive with temp hp, and the number of temp hp +1 (to know if they die from any given single attack).

Cheers, -- N

What if you hit the minions for 23 hitpoints of damage when they only have 5 extra hp?

 

[Nifft]

What if you hit the minions for 23 hitpoints of damage when they only have 5 extra hp?

That's why I need that extra number (temp hp +1), to know if one dies from any given single attack.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Skyscraper]

Yes, it does -- but in proportion. Most normal non-minion critters will get an extra half-a-hit or so from +5 hit points; minions get the same benefit.

Yes, but half-a-hit is a lot when any hit however small kills you; as compared to half-a-hit when it takes 4 or 5 hits to kill you. That's why i maintain that although the 500% increase is not a correct power-uppage assessment (as you noted above), the point is that it is a significant increase since they might now survive an attack.

I have trouble wrapping my mind around how good some low-level powers can become on minions when their effect is otherwise trivial. And how good some powers become on minions when they remain rather marginal with respect to other creatures.

I've considered making temporary hit points an all-or-nothing kind of deal for minions: if they have temp HP, they lose all of them on a hit. So I only have to track two states (per minion) and one number: alive, alive with temp hp, and the number of temp hp +1 (to know if they die from any given single attack).

Cheers, -- N

Yeah, i've read that also on some boards. There are a few things to consider with minions and temporary hit points, from my standpoint the main two are: (1) a power that aims to provide a minor buff to most strong creatures should not become stronger for weaker creatures (minions) as noted above; and (2) the simplicity of usage of minions is interesting from my point of view, i don't want to spoil that.

Your suggestion only partly addresses point #2; it becomes simpler than tracking hit points, but you still need to track something.

Sky

 

[Nifft]

Yes, but half-a-hit is a lot when any hit however small kills you; as compared to half-a-hit when it takes 4 or 5 hits to kill you.

I have trouble wrapping my mind around how good some low-level powers can become on minions when their effect is otherwise trivial. And how good some powers become on minions when they remain rather marginal with respect to other creatures.

For the first point -- absolutely true. Leaders combined with Minions are dangerous. IMHO this is a tool to be used (judiciously), rather than a problem to be avoided.

For the second, I'd suggest many powers only make sense when you expect to face minions with some frequency. Cleave, for example, would be a far inferior choice if there were no minions around.

the simplicity of usage of minions is interesting from my point of view, i don't want to spoil that.

Your suggestion only partly addresses point #2; it becomes simpler than tracking hit points, but you still need to track something.

Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. (Einstein)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Skyscraper]

For the first point -- absolutely true. Leaders combined with Minions are dangerous. IMHO this is a tool to be used (judiciously), rather than a problem to be avoided.

It is obviously something that can be used (and apparently was intended to be used). Just not my cup of tea. Once you accept that minions can have hit points over 1, you can of course have powers that take advantage of this.

For the second, I'd suggest many powers only make sense when you expect to face minions with some frequency. Cleave, for example, would be a far inferior choice if there were no minions around.

Good point, but i think that the temporay HPs to the minions is a different mechanic: it changes how minions work. It doesn't just make them more survivable which in itself doesn't change the mechanic, it forces the DM to track hit points for his hordes of minions. There is the breaking point as far as i'm concerned. Whereas cleave uses the same damage mechanic as any other power: it simply damages opponents, though i agree that it is much more effective against minions.

Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. (Einstein)

Oh, avoid historical citations, will you! Else, next thing you know we'll be flining some Sun Tzu "Art of War" at each other!

Sky

 

[Togetic]

For example: Cleave typically inflicts 3-4 points of damage on a minion, which is 2-3 more than he has. But a 1+5 temp hp Minion can survive two such side-effects.

Similarly scaled damage effects: Cloud of Daggers and the side-effect of a Pact Blade.

I think the DM's guide solves the "minion hp" question explicitly when it states:

"A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage."

So a minion doesn't technically have hit points; the "hp 1" seems to be merely a shorthand for indicating a minion. Thus, maybe the bolstering effect does work, but when you hit the minion, the minion is dead, regardless of its hit points.

I would allow it to look like the effect helps the minions, but they could still be killed with one hit.

 

[Nifft]

It is obviously something that can be used (and apparently was intended to be used). Just not my cup of tea. Once you accept that minions can have hit points over 1, you can of course have powers that take advantage of this.

Hey, if you don't like it, the fix is easy: don't use those kinds of leaders with any minions. (For a published adventure, just replace 4 minions with one non-minion Soldier.)

The combo should be fairly uncommon -- though I say that without counting the number of Leaders in the MM who grant temporary hit points.

Good point, but i think that the temporay HPs to the minions is a different mechanic: it changes how minions work. It doesn't just make them more survivable which in itself doesn't change the mechanic, it forces the DM to track hit points for his hordes of minions.

That's exactly the thinking behind my two-state proposal. Every minion just gets one more bit of information to track.

Also: "He who designs monsters must take care lest he become a monster. When you gaze long into an abacus, the abacus gazes into you." - Not Friedrich Nietzsche

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I think the DM's guide solves the "minion hp" question explicitly when it states:

"A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage."

If an attack is ablated by temporary hit points, the target takes no damage -- and is thus not destroyed (in your reading).

You can rule it differently -- as I've done with my two-state rule -- but note that it's not RAW. That's fine, rules are meant to be housed.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Arbitrary]

I think it is useful as a change-up to suddenly have minions get boosted by an enemy leader, especially if the players are accustomed to aoe'ing a bunch or two and the minions never impacting the battlefield.

 

[Kraydak]

If an attack is ablated by temporary hit points, the target takes no damage -- and is thus not destroyed (in your reading).

You can rule it differently -- as I've done with my two-state rule -- but note that it's not RAW. That's fine, rules are meant to be housed.

Cheers, -- N

The "lose temporary hp first" section of the temp. hp. rules fairly explicitly calls out losing temporary hp as "taking damage". It appears that "taking damage" is not the same as having something "doing damage to you".