Developer Talk = Gospel?

[DM_Blake]

But ultimately, I think, the litmus test is the general reception combined with playtesting - as many things - RPG design profits from a lively debate. If the designer talk only gets agreement, it cannot be that wrong. If people make well-reasoned arguments against it, then we can see possible difficulties - and that's why trolls are sometimes distracting: They can drown actual debates.

Maybe true, but I agree with the OP that, at least around here, it often seems that "general reception" goes something like "Ooooh, super dev so-and-so said it, even put it in writing in some blog somewhere, so it must now and forever more be Gospel."

And as for "combined with playtesting" it sure is hard to playtest the 4e rules for summoning monsters and handling druid (or even ranger) animal companions.

So, ultimately, the idea of "general reception combined with playtesting" is a little absurd, especially around here.

Anyone voicing an alternate opinion is usually drowned out by the "general reception" of 4e sycophants defending their Gospel with only slightly less zeal than Crusaders marching off to bring Christianity to the Holy Land, and there is nothing for us to playtest, so Abandon all Hope all Ye whe Entere Here if you dare oppose the Gospel with no support from the RAW.

So dissenters are eventually ground to dust under the Great Gospel Wheel of Zeal.

(hmmmm, I like Wheel of Zeal - I may have to put that to use somewhere)

 

[Keenath]

If you want to stick with the chess thing, the poor pawn is horrendously underpowered compared to the other pieces. Poor bastard.

Huh? That was kind of the point of the metaphor, so... what was your point in reiterating it?

There's nothing wrong with a pawn being weak when the player has a dozen other pieces to move around. When you have one and only one character, being mechanically weak is totally an issue. If you only get to pick one chess piece to play with, obviously you want to be one of the good ones -- and, as was the point of the metaphor, a bishop can have an awesome background and awesome roleplay elements just as easily as a pawn can. Roleplaying has very little to do with the specific mechanical expression of the character.

It's not gospel because some WotC "star" developer says it. It shouldn't be treated as such.

Nobody thinks it is gospel because some star dev said so. A lot of us strongly agree with it because the comments fit with what we've seen in the game and agree with our personal points of view.

I like how "people who agree" turns into "sheep" for some people. No, I actually just agree.

Magic > swinging a sword.
...
Because magic is crazy and off-the-wall, helicopters with guns flying into swimming pools and shooting at rocket cars. Anyone can swing a sword.

The argument is "magic can do anything and physical combat is physical combat", then? Sigh. I'm sure you'll denegrate as 'weeaboo' anything that shows swordsmen as powerful, fast, and dangerous. Not to mention capable of killing a BBEG wizard. Never mind that those concepts cover huge quantities of fantasy literature and folklore. I seem to recall Sleeping Beauty's Malificent, a powerful magic user, getting totally solo'd by a knight with a blessed weapon, for example.

There's no reason (at least, none external to your own head) to decide that fighters are -- indeed, must be -- clumsy, stupid, and weak. Fantasy swordsmen are just as fantastic as fantasy wizards, and just as likely to have superhuman powers. Do you recall Cuchulainn and his warp-spasm that could turn him into a hideous raging monster that slaughtered entire armies by himself? Caladbolg, the sword that cut the tops off three hills with one swing?

The only reason for fighters to be weaker than magicians is because D&D has always had it that way.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

Game designers design games for a living 24x7. Doctors give medical insights, lawyers give legal advice; it's the same for game designers. If they aren't an authority, then who is? Certainly not any grognard.

If their game design works and is superior for many to 3.5, then why fight it? Unless you're a "planned obsolescence" conspiracy theorist.

We don't have access to the manual that they developed and used to create 4E. The manual that goes through all the math behind 4E. The people that have access to that? The game designers.

They fixed stuff that was broken with 3.5 and aligned 4E with the sweet spot of 3.5 (mid-levels). TWF rogues with 8 sneak attacks of 10d6 was ridiculous, gone. Druids with tons of summoning, annoying, gone. Wizards that can do anything and upstage the other players at the table, gone. "I attack", gone. Grapple, limited. 20+ spells per level for casters to choose from, gone. etc. etc. I think there is plenty of reason for folks to place their trust in the game designers, EVEN IF it is blind faith. This is "show me" trust.

TRUST

Either you're a trusting person or you're not. If you trust other people implicitly, you'll give off the energy of trust. If you don't trust others by default or make people prove they are "trustworthy" then people will see you as mistrusting.

It really is OK to be a trusting person and to trust people implicitly. That doesn't mean be stupid about it. If someone steals from you, you can still trust them. You trust that they will steal from you, and in other aspects of life you trust them. Your whole attitude and outlook can change if you simply decide to trust people, including yourself.

 

[KingCrab]

I'm a bit of a powergamer. I blame my mathematical background, I just like optimizing things.

Back in 2e, I used to play one shot adventures at conventions. Whenever it was a high level game, I'd play a wizard every time. Whenever it was a low level game, I'd prefer a fighter.

Back in 3.xe, I immediately fell in love with the druid. The ability to blast to keep up with wizards and fight to keep up with fighters (MM3 dinouars with MM3 dino pets?) and the ability to summon an army before combat was too much to pass up.

Now I've been looking at 4e. There isn't any class that I have an absolute desire to play and I think that's probably a good thing. I've only played once, so I'm not sure yet, but my primitive desire to pick the most powerful class isn't coming out, because it does seem better balanced.

Now, you've mentioned that in fantasy wizards have a reputation for conjuring things. They also have a reputation for losing control of creations, or having to at least work hard to keep them under control. I think losing move actions to control summons could fit in well with that idea.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

For another, as a matter of policy, we judge people by what they do and say while they are here.

You know, I just can't let this one go. This is an extreme example, but if someone commits murder 2 counties over, I'm not going to ignore that they did it when they come to my neighborhood and want to be friends. Especially with a level of condescend and sarcasm that increases at a per-post rate.

I'm more than happy to abide by any policy here, but board policy simply doesn't extend to how we (specifically, I) form opinions of other posters.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You know, I just can't let this one go. This is an extreme example, but if someone commits murder 2 counties over, I'm not going to ignore that they did it when they come to my neighborhood and want to be friends. Especially with a level of condescend and sarcasm that increases at a per-post rate.

I'm more than happy to abide by any policy here, but board policy simply doesn't extend to how we (specifically, I) form opinions of other posters.

A little too much hyperbole, maybe? Trolling is annoying. Not terrifying and destroying lives of families.

And if you suspect someone of murder, do you scream around the neighborhood "Murderer, murderer, murderer!", or do you call the police and try to keep it contained?

So, what do you with Trolls on message boards? Scream that they are trolls or notify the mods?

 

[Nifft]

So, what do you with Trolls on message boards? Scream that they are trolls or notify the mods?

Click the "Punch Poster" button under the post, and vB takes care of the rest.

Yet another reason to get a Community Supporter account! -- N

 

[vazanar]

I remember a game I dungeon mastered where one of my players was a conjurer/summoner, and managed to get something like 7 elementals into the fight before the end. His final turn took him like 10 minutes to complete.

Sure, those summoning ideas can be a cool mechanic, but they just totally bog down the game and ruin the fun. My entire gaming group complained from that night on that we gotta limit the number of summons because it's ridiculous to have the game bog down that bad.

So, with 4E, one of the things I enjoy IMMENSELY is the economy of actions, whereby every player and monster's turns are relatively fast paced, and some minor math problems or multi-attack AoEs aside, every players turn tends to take a minute or less.

Its too bad they had to simply eliminate a big part of fantasy to do it.

If/When they get to it I wonder how they will deal with it. Maybe summons will be more powerful but you can't move or take a standard action? Only one creature but dm controls them unless you spend an action?

Side Note:I gotta say in most of my games I think a summoner calling more than a few creatures becomes target no 1 of just about everything (just as if an npc summoned things).

 

[Psychic Robot]

Hercules, Odyseues, Arthur, Mordred, Lancelot, Cu Chulian, Gilgamesh, Agamemnon

Totally not Wizards, totally kicked ass, often that of Wizards.

Yes, and they were crazy epic powerful.

Well, not Arthur so much, but Hercules and whatnot.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

Psychic Robot is not a troll

I say again, Psychic Robot is not a troll.

My posts on another forum have no bearing on what I post here. I came here for discussion, not for trolling. However, I am free to provide commentary on the posts--commentary complete with inappropriate language--in a place that does not have the same rules as ENWorld.

The Gaming Den is one of those places.

This whole e-stalking thing is annoying. Please stop following me around on messageboards and then posting the content here.

I am allowed to be mean and vulgar and everything else that I wouldn't be in an actual discussion on my own time. If I pointed you in the direction of my blog, would you read through it and copy-paste posts here?

Allow me to repeat myself:

My actions in an area that is not ENWorld have no bearing on what I do at ENWorld.

Please treat them as such.

Thank you.

Huh? That was kind of the point of the metaphor, so... what was your point in reiterating it?

The pawn is too weak in comparison to the queen or whatever for my own tatses (in terms of RPGs), so I would find that unacceptable. A better example would be comparing the rook or bishop to the queen. Or the king, heh.

Nobody thinks it is gospel because some star dev said so. A lot of us strongly agree with it because the comments fit with what we've seen in the game and agree with our personal points of view.

I like how "people who agree" turns into "sheep" for some people. No, I actually just agree.

Often times, people who do agree are "sheep." I did not say that you were a "sheep," and not everyone who does agree is a "sheep."

The argument is "magic can do anything and physical combat is physical combat", then? Sigh. I'm sure you'll denegrate as 'weeaboo' anything that shows swordsmen as powerful, fast, and dangerous. Not to mention capable of killing a BBEG wizard. Never mind that those concepts cover huge quantities of fantasy literature and folklore. I seem to recall Sleeping Beauty's Malificent, a powerful magic user, getting totally solo'd by a knight with a blessed weapon, for example.

In a way, yes. I prefer lower-magic settings without...weaboo--to use the term that you used--elements.

There's no reason (at least, none external to your own head) to decide that fighters are -- indeed, must be -- clumsy, stupid, and weak.

Oh, God, that straw effigy is in flames! Quick, put it out by using a real argument!

Fantasy swordsmen are just as fantastic as fantasy wizards, and just as likely to have superhuman powers. Do you recall Cuchulainn and his warp-spasm that could turn him into a hideous raging monster that slaughtered entire armies by himself? Caladbolg, the sword that cut the tops off three hills with one swing?

Li'l over-the-top for my tastes.

Snip.

Look, the developers--those people who played RPGs 24-7--made 3e. And they left things in like gate. And Toughness. And 3.0 harm and haste. And the fighter. And the druid. And the cleric.

And you know what the 4e devs made? Skill challenges. And the warlock as striker (as another thread here proves is weak).

Forgive me for not trusting them implicitly.

Of course, your analogy is flawed in that D&D works off of numbers. Most anyone with a calculator and a basic understanding of statistics can break D&D down and examine its core components. +2 to hit = +10% chance of hitting. It's that simple. Doctors need a little more training than that.

You know, I just can't let this one go. This is an extreme example, but if someone commits murder 2 counties over, I'm not going to ignore that they did it when they come to my neighborhood and want to be friends. Especially with a level of condescend and sarcasm that increases at a per-post rate.

I'm more than happy to abide by any policy here, but board policy simply doesn't extend to how we (specifically, I) form opinions of other posters.

When I take the time to hunt down another poster and stab him to death, I will acknowledge your thinking.

This is the Internet. Everyone's a jerk.

 

[comrade raoul]

Wanna do impressive feats of necromancy in 4e? Not hard to implement!

Undead Horde -- Wizard Daily 15
You wave your hands wildly and utter foul chants, not meant for living ears. Countless shambling skeletons rise from the ground around you, hacking and grasping at anything they can reach.
Daily * Arcane, Zone
Standard Action -- Area burst 6
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 2d8 + Intelligence modifier damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
Effect: The burst creates a zone of mindless yet aggressive skeletal warriors that lasts until the end of your next turn before they crumble into dust. The zone is considered difficult terrain. As a move action, you can move the zone a number of squares equal to half your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1 square).
Sustain Minor: When you sustain the power, repeat the attack against all creatures within the zone.