D&D General Eberron - why don't you run it? [-]

[Misanthrope Prime]

If the party can do it themselves without resorting to tying themselves to an NPC or an organization, why wouldn't they?

Because it's cheaper?

I was a teenager during the heyday of World of Warcraft, so that inspired my DMing style more so than others who were inspired more by fantasy literature or actual plays. WoW and many other contemporary MMOs feature casual teleportation among many other "high fantasy" concessions for ease of gameplay, because players don't want to manually walk their asses from the equator to the north pole (When WoW first launched, you used to have to take boats or zeppelins to other continents that ran on a schedule, forcing you to wait with your fellow players, but over time they've been replaced by self-serve teleporters). I assume that a high level campaign, like a max level WoW character, is going to be physically crossing large amounts of space, which means they are going to be blowing material components and spell slots on a shitload of teleportations. At level 20 I can imagine needing to teleport 10 times a day and only having 4 spell slots with which to cast it.

What value does a group that can cast teleport get from a travel service, to use an obvious example?

Extra spell slots and an already established network of teleportation circles, off the top of my head. If I'm an adventurer I wanna save my spell slots for naughty word like simulacrum or prismatic wall, especially when I can just pay someone to teleport me. EDIT: I also realize this is something like asking "why would an aeronautics engineer fly commercial?" Not everyone who knows how to build planes wants to build a plane and be responsible for everything that could happen, they'd rather offload the work and responsibility to someone else.

I like cooking for my friends. I'm happy to make enough hamburgers for four people. But if I'm having a massive party and 50 people are showing up, I'm not going to cook them all hamburgers even though I am perfectly capable of making hundreds of hamburgers, I have better things to do with my time and energy than do that. Luckily I live under capitalism, so I can just pay a professional hamburger maker to make them and cater the party. And that's a core conceit of Eberron; capitalism has infected magic and given us the magewright, a professional NPC spellcaster who can convert money into magic.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

I would agree that 'in the world of Eberron' that is what is supposed to happen, and if this was a novel series then absolutely the protagonists would have no problem doing so, talking and working with everyone and anyone. But I'm saying as a practical matter at the game table... I personally do not believe most players do that. They've been conditioned not to by DMs always trying to take them by surprise. DMs LOVE to take their players by surprise because it's one of the few ways the game gives the DM the advantage, since the actual game rules are designed to have the PCs succeed most of the time. I mean, isn't that why we have all the complaints about Darkvision? Because Darkvision removes one of the better ways DMs have of surprising their players, and if that happens, what's left? Well... the only thing that's left is for narrative twists in the story by having supposedly-friendly NPCs sudden turn on the party and force their will upon them (if not outright try to kill them.) And players know this because they've experienced these DMs trying to do it to them. And that's why (I believe) they usually will not give any NPC anything and just do everything themselves as they play the game.

Surprise is just one of the many tools a DM has in their toolbox. What you're describing to me is the behavior of players whose DMs rely too much on surprise as a storytelling element and so the game has evolved into something incredibly adversarial.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Surprise is just one of the many tools a DM has in their toolbox. What you're describing to me is the behavior of players whose DMs rely too much on surprise as a storytelling element and so the game has evolved into something incredibly adversarial.

Absolutely! 100%. I suspect I just believe there are more of those player/DM dynamics found across the globe than you do.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Absolutely! 100%. I suspect I just believe there are more of those player/DM dynamics found across the globe than you do.

That simply hasn't been my experience. Since COVID however, most of the games I've been in as a player or DM have been with people who started playing D&D with 5e and they also tend not to be the traditional D&D demographic so perhaps these people are bringing other expectations to the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because it's cheaper?

I was a teenager during the heyday of World of Warcraft, so that inspired my DMing style more so than others who were inspired more by fantasy literature or actual plays. WoW and many other contemporary MMOs feature casual teleportation among many other "high fantasy" concessions for ease of gameplay, because players don't want to manually walk their asses from the equator to the north pole (When WoW first launched, you used to have to take boats or zeppelins to other continents that ran on a schedule, forcing you to wait with your fellow players, but over time they've been replaced by self-serve teleporters). I assume that a high level campaign, like a max level WoW character, is going to be physically crossing large amounts of space, which means they are going to be blowing material components and spell slots on a shitload of teleportations. At level 20 I can imagine needing to teleport 10 times a day and only having 4 spell slots with which to cast it.




Extra spell slots and an already established network of teleportation circles, off the top of my head. If I'm an adventurer I wanna save my spell slots for naughty word like simulacrum or prismatic wall, especially when I can just pay someone to teleport me. EDIT: I also realize this is something like asking "why would an aeronautics engineer fly commercial?" Not everyone who knows how to build planes wants to build a plane and be responsible for everything that could happen, they'd rather offload the work and responsibility to someone else.

I like cooking for my friends. I'm happy to make enough hamburgers for four people. But if I'm having a massive party and 50 people are showing up, I'm not going to cook them all hamburgers even though I am perfectly capable of making hundreds of hamburgers, I have better things to do with my time and energy than do that. Luckily I live under capitalism, so I can just pay a professional hamburger maker to make them and cater the party. And that's a core conceit of Eberron; capitalism has infected magic and given us the magewright, a professional NPC spellcaster who can convert money into magic.

I think @DEFCON 1 's point is that in real life we don't regularly worry that the grocery store is going to betray us for its own benefit. At least, probably not. And if you're going to pay someone to do it for you (and the irritations that sometimes result in reality are lessened in intensity or non-existent in play), then why not spend that money to get what you need to do it yourself and be beholden to no one?

I think this is a culture problem, which IMO is best solved at the table level by the GM doing what they can to generate trust for the settings institutions. Nsrrative twists IMO aren't worth losing the player's interest in the world the PCs live in.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

I think @DEFCON 1 's point is that in real life we don't regularly worry that the grocery store is going to betray us for its own benefit. At least, probably not. And if you're going to pay someone to do it for you (and the irritations that sometimes result in reality are lessened in intensity or non-existent in play), then why not spend that money to get what you need to do it yourself and be beholden to no one?

I think this is a culture problem, which IMO is best solved at the table level by the GM doing what they can to generate trust for the settings institutions. Nsrrative twists IMO aren't worth losing the player's interest in the world the PCs live in.

The thing is that Eberron has the social fabric for high consumer trust! The dragonmarked houses are brands!

There's a reason I trust McDonalds and I don't trust Jack in the Box: branding. Treat Dragonmarks like the Nintendo Seal of Approval!

If someone came up to me in a trenchcoat and said "hey kid wanna buy some teleportation" I'd call the police. But if someone with the full backing of House Orien did the same, I'd shove my coinpurse into his fast before you could say "allakhazam".

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thing is that Eberron has the social fabric for high consumer trust! The dragonmarked houses are brands!

There's a reason I trust McDonalds and I don't trust Jack in the Box: branding. Treat Dragonmarks like the Nintendo Seal of Approval!

If someone came up to me in a trenchcoat and said "hey kid wanna buy some teleportation" I'd call the police. But if someone with the full backing of House Orien did the same, I'd shove my coinpurse into his fast before you could say "allakhazam".

I get that, but again, in this scenario we are dealing with real people who make decisions based on their real experience as gamers. That can and often does override playing "in character".

 

[earthsea_wizard]

All that said, one thing Eberron does do well - and that really should be ported to all mid-to-high magic settings - is the magic-for-the-masses piece. I mean, for example it just makes too much bloody sense that city streets in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms would have Continual Light streetlights, etc.

After reading most of the Eberron stuff for 3rd edition I came away from it having a difficult time justifying this in other settings. How do all of you Realms and Greyhawk etc. people approach this now? Or do you still handwave it (which is certainly a fine approach, fantasy rpg worlds don't need to be super logical, just gameable)?

 

[earthsea_wizard]

The thing is that Eberron has the social fabric for high consumer trust! The dragonmarked houses are brands!

There's a reason I trust McDonalds and I don't trust Jack in the Box: branding. Treat Dragonmarks like the Nintendo Seal of Approval!

If someone came up to me in a trenchcoat and said "hey kid wanna buy some teleportation" I'd call the police. But if someone with the full backing of House Orien did the same, I'd shove my coinpurse into his fast before you could say "allakhazam".

You trust McDonalds but not Jack in the Box?

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

You trust McDonalds but not Jack in the Box?

For some reason I feel more in control of hot coffee than E coli.