D&D General Eberron - why don't you run it? [-]

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yep. Exactly. That's really the advantage that was theoretically gained by the Dragonmarked Houses-- 99.999% of the populace might have at best up to 3rd level spells... but the House members who exhibited the more powerful dragonmarks would give those individuals the 5th, 6th, 7th level spells etc. that practically nobody else would have. And its because of that the Houses were able to make their cheese because they had daily magic that could not be replicated by anyone else and thus they could profit from it by selling it off.

Now to Keith's (et. al.s) credit... they DID attempt to fix this fatal flaw in the setting by stating that having high-level magic spells weren't enough to produce the sorts of magitech the setting is known for... the Houses also had schema (aka blueprints) that were required to make all this magitech possible. So if you had a party of high-level PCs, they couldn't replace the Dragonmarked Houses or The Twelve or Arcanix etc. because they didn't have the schema needed to do what those groups did. But that didn't solve what to me is the actual "at-the-table adventuring issue" which is making these organizations worthwhile or necessary for the party to interact with. They won't need Orien for travel, they won't need Jorasco for healing, with Tiny Huts and Magnificent Mansions they won't need Ghallandra for housing, they'll be powerful enough that they won't need Deneith's or Tharashk's help for mercenaries and the like, the rogues in the party will be better spies for their needs than what any member of the Dark Lanterns or House Phiarlan could give them, etc. etc. etc. The higher the party's level... the more they can do it all for themselves, especially when almost every other NPC has powers that are at best 5th level, but mostly quite a bit below.

As PCs level up, the nature of their relationship with the movers and shakers of the setting changes, as they become movers and shakers themselves. Doesn't that seem more logical than high-level adventurers staying stuck as the lackeys of the mayor of a minor village, or whatever else they started as?

A high-level party may not need House Orien to teleport them around personally, but they may still want access to their teleportation circles and maps. They may want to cut a deal with House Lyrandar for use of an airship. The party rogue might be a better single spy than any one Dark Lantern, but they don't have anything close to the breadth of coverage or accumulated information the Lanterns have access to. Likewise Deneith can still provide protection or "boots on ground". If the party need a true resurrection, they will still need to petition the Towering Wood or Flamekeep, and those NPCs probably aren't going to ask for anything as mundane as a big bag of gold.

As the party levels up, the nature of their interactions change, but they will still interact with the institutions of Eberron.

The omnipresent magical technology makes it less than equivalent to me.

Eberron has considerably less magical technology than 1920s had actual technology.

 

[Cergorach]

Eberron is weird, but not weird enough.

Let us start that back in 2002-2004 when Eberron won the WotC 'Fantasy Setting Search' it was both interesting and problematic, because WotC HAD a ton of cool and interesting D&D fantasy worlds, which they didn't do anything with during the 3.0e and 3.5e era, they did some with it during 4e, and some with 5e, but for many fans either too little too late and/or they just think WotC did a horrible job with it. And they were either 2-3 products (during the 4e era) or one offs during the 5e era.

So for many long time D&D fans the first thing they think of as Eberron is the weird stepchild that was born when WotC was neglecting it's other 'children'...

While the fantasy steampunky setting that is Eberron is cool, it is also weird enough from regular (D&D) fantasy settings that many folks are not that comfortable in that same setting, as it doesn't hit that same sword & sorcery vibe they are actually looking for. And when folks want something very different, Eberron isn't different enough to play a very long campaign in. It has imho a very small niche that has grown over the last two decades. WotC seems to think so as well as there was only one Eberron hardcover during the D&D 5e 2014 decade, there's another product announced for D&D 5e 2024, but has been delayed.

If people wanted to play something different from Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, or Dragonlance, they looked for things like Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc. While some played whole campaigns in there, for many it was a temporary sidetrack to something else. Something along the lines of the Eberron stop during the Vecna 'rollercoaster ride' (official hardcover), a quick dip into what is Eberron, and then move on.

No one of our ~35 year old gaming group has any real connection with Eberron, even though we were heavily invested in 3rd edition D&D. We played FR, one of our group has been a long time fan of Dragonlance (I'm a big fan of Draconians), I have almost all 2e/3e/4e D&D products including Eberron, but even I haven't played it. One person in our group had some interest in the core Eberron book, they read it, we discussed it a bit and never mentioned it again. We were supposed to be playing the 5e Vecna adventure, but while we progressed the DM used some of the Vecna stuff and just stayed mostly in FR (with some trips to other places). The Eberron stuff just didn't excite either of us (as I was making the adaption for Foundry VTT, but not DMing it) and to me the Dragonlance part didn't feel like Dragonlance to me.

So, D&D is our go-to game for pnp RPGs as a group, and in the past we dipped our toes into Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, because some of us wanted something and some of us only wanted D&D. We have played Shadowrun, Vampire, and Kids on Bikes with this group, but we always went back to D&D. I'm at a point where if I want something else, I look at other RPGs like The Spire/Heart, Mothership, Blades in the Dark, etc. Instead of a D&D Eberron.

Don't get me wrong, I think the magic train was cool, but I think I would rather play in something like Deadlands to get the same effect. I think the idea of Warforged is cool, but Eberron is trying to be too many things at once, making it none of those things, and getting a slightly weird generic setting. If I wanted to play something robot/android like, I would rather play Dragonstar, Alternity, or even Starfinder...

Honestly, I think the WotC 'Fantasy Setting Search' was a response to the announcement of Blizzards World of Warcraft MMO (in September 2001). Hence the search for a new setting in 2002 and both WoW and Eberron released in 2004. WoW attracted oodles of monthly paying customers, to be honest it was bigger then D&D at the time (unless you start twisting numbers), hence the move to D&D 4e later. But ultimately it was WotC attempt to create new IP that was attractive to new players/DMs in the early 2000s without a huge backlog of lore, products, and knowledge to turn away certain new players/DMs. It was not a bad plan imho. It just wasn't really connecting with many who already had been playing D&D for 15-20 years. And it also kinda felt rushed, with only later products further fleshing out the setting, but in turn recreating the same problem 20+ years later, a setting with quite a bit of lore and background...

 

[DEFCON 1]

As PCs level up, the nature of their relationship with the movers and shakers of the setting changes, as they become movers and shakers themselves. Doesn't that seem more logical than high-level adventurers staying stuck as the lackeys of the mayor of a minor village, or whatever else they started as?

A high-level party may not need House Orien to teleport them around personally, but they may still want access to their teleportation circles and maps. They may want to cut a deal with House Lyrandar for use of an airship. The party rogue might be a better single spy than any one Dark Lantern, but they don't have anything close to the breadth of coverage or accumulated information the Lanterns have access to. Likewise Deneith can still provide protection or "boots on ground". If the party need a true resurrection, they will still need to petition the Towering Wood or Flamekeep, and those NPCs probably aren't going to ask for anything as mundane as a big bag of gold.

As the party levels up, the nature of their interactions change, but they will still interact with the institutions of Eberron.

I disagree that the party would need or want to actually interact with these organizations if the party itself can accomplish whatever it is they would otherwise need from them.

It's my belief that most players are naturally risk-adverse and do not like owing things to other NPCs, because most are afraid DMs are going to suddenly give an NPC a heel turn and surprise surprise turn them against the party as some sort of "twist" in the story. So most players more often than not will keep all their cards to their chest, and not open up or make deals with NPCs if they can help it because they don't trust the DM won't use those deals against them. Instead, they would rather just do everything themselves. As a result, if a table can teleport themselves anywhere, they will usually do so on their own without needing to be beholden to House Orien because they know if they do, the DM will probably use that debt against them at some point. At least, that is my feelings on the matter.

If you feel differently, that's cool. I would consider you lucky if your experience says that players are usually very open with their information and plans, and are happy to interact with and deal with anybody and everybody in a campaign world. Because that is not my experience, and based on everything I read from all kinds of places about other tables, it seems like I'm not alone on that. I just think players do not trust their DM not to screw them over within the story in order to generate "twists" in the narrative, so players just keep their band of PCs to themselves. Which means my original point still stands... in Khorvaire you might have 2 dozen people across the continent who would be considered like 12th level or higher (so like maybe 2 across each of the twelve nations)... plus another FIVE or SIX all banded together into one singular super-group... all walking around like the cock of the walk, all of whom have the power to just operate on their own and never having to make deals with anyone ever.

But again... it is what it is. It's mere just the one "flaw" in the design of the setting (in my opinion), but it's nothing that cannot be worked around, as I've before.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It’s a world where scientists have studied magic and turned it into engineering, there isn’t more magic, any more than the real world has more electricity than other worlds. It’s just that the magic is understood and applied to solve practical problems. And, since form follows function, those solutions are going to look like real world solutions to the same problems until you look under the hood.

Give the Forgotten Realms another couple of hundred years and it will look much like Eberron.

There isn't more powerful magic, but there is more present magic. Magic is visibly more present in the world.

I don't actually have a problem with this idea in concept. I just don't care for fantasy and noir together, because to me the fantasy interferes with the noir.

Or maybe I just don't like noir much. I'm actually working this out as I type this, but I'm not sure noir as a genre is all that appealing to me. Huh.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do you really think everyone should dress in the same ren faire outfits in every single fantasy world?

To be fair, there are more than two options for visual style available.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And for some reason no one ever seems to refer to Ravenloft as Steampunk. It's like it has a magical aura of tech blindness!

I feel Ravenloft's Gothic horror tone makes it look quite different from steampunk. Far fewer gears, for example (though not none), and less large-scale modern-seemibg technology (no trains or airships for example).

 

[Micah Sweet]

As PCs level up, the nature of their relationship with the movers and shakers of the setting changes, as they become movers and shakers themselves. Doesn't that seem more logical than high-level adventurers staying stuck as the lackeys of the mayor of a minor village, or whatever else they started as?

A high-level party may not need House Orien to teleport them around personally, but they may still want access to their teleportation circles and maps. They may want to cut a deal with House Lyrandar for use of an airship. The party rogue might be a better single spy than any one Dark Lantern, but they don't have anything close to the breadth of coverage or accumulated information the Lanterns have access to. Likewise Deneith can still provide protection or "boots on ground". If the party need a true resurrection, they will still need to petition the Towering Wood or Flamekeep, and those NPCs probably aren't going to ask for anything as mundane as a big bag of gold.

As the party levels up, the nature of their interactions change, but they will still interact with the institutions of Eberron.


Eberron has considerably less magical technology than 1920s had actual technology.

Sure, but visible technomagic is what I'm talking about here.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

I disagree that the party would need or want to actually interact with these organizations if the party itself can accomplish whatever it is they would otherwise need from them.

It's my belief that most players are naturally risk-adverse and do not like owing things to other NPCs, because most are afraid DMs are going to suddenly give an NPC a heel turn and surprise surprise turn them against the party as some sort of "twist" in the story. So most players more often than not will keep all their cards to their chest, and not open up or make deals with NPCs if they can help it because they don't turn the DM won't use those deals against them. Instead, they would rather just do everything themselves. As a result, if a table can teleport themselves anywhere, they will usually do so on their own without needing to be beholden to House Orien because they know if they do, the DM will probably use that debt against them at some point. At least, that is my feelings on the matter.

If you feel differently, that's cool. I would consider you lucky if your experience says that players are usually very open with their information and plans, and are happy to interact with and deal with anybody and everybody in a campaign world. Because that is not my experience, and based on everything I read from all kinds of places about other tables, it seems like I'm not alone on that. I just think players do not trust their DM not to screw them over within the story in order to generate "twists" in the narrative, so players just keep their band of PCs to themselves. Which means my original point still stands... in Khorvaire you might have 2 dozen people across the continent who would be considered like 12th level or higher (so like maybe 2 across each of the twelve nations)... plus another FIVE or SIX all banded together into one singular super-group... all walking around like the cock of the walk, all of whom have the power to just operate on their own and never having to make deals with anyone ever.

But again... it is what it is. It's mere just the one "flaw" in the design of the setting (in my opinion), but it's nothing that cannot be worked around, as I've before.

The whole point of these organizations is that they can apply an economy of scale. The players may be able to do the same things as them, but they can't do them as well, as fast or as cheaply as the houses, in some capacity that makes them attractive to the players.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The whole point of these organizations is that they can apply an economy of scale. The players may be able to do the same things as them, but they can't do them as well, as fast or as cheaply as the houses, in some capacity that makes them attractive to the players.

Do you feel that pans out in play though? I can definitely see @DEFCON 1 's point about this. If the party can do it themselves without resorting to tying themselves to an NPC or an organization, why wouldn't they? What value does a group that can cast teleport get from a travel service, to use an obvious example? PC personal power in modern D&D gets so high, so quickly, that it becomes feasible to ignore setting options.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The whole point of these organizations is that they can apply an economy of scale. The players may be able to do the same things as them, but they can't do them as well, as fast or as cheaply as the houses, in some capacity that makes them attractive to the players.

I would agree that 'in the world of Eberron' that is what is supposed to happen, and if this was a novel series then absolutely the protagonists would have no problem doing so, talking and working with everyone and anyone. But I'm saying as a practical matter at the game table... I personally do not believe most players do that. They've been conditioned not to by DMs always trying to take them by surprise. DMs LOVE to take their players by surprise because it's one of the few ways the game gives the DM the advantage, since the actual game rules are designed to have the PCs succeed most of the time. I mean, isn't that why we have all the complaints about Darkvision? Because Darkvision removes one of the better ways DMs have of surprising their players, and if that happens, what's left? Well... the only thing that's left is for narrative twists in the story by having supposedly-friendly NPCs sudden turn on the party and force their will upon them (if not outright try to kill them.) And players know this because they've experienced these DMs trying to do it to them. And that's why (I believe) they usually will not give any NPC anything and just do everything themselves as they play the game.