Forked Thread: "The Death of the Imagination" re: World of Warcraft
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
Imagination tends to benefit from exercise. Much like physical exercise there are objectively better and worse ways to exercises for certain results.
Exercising the imagination typically focuses on various levels of visualization and creativity. The more challenges your imagination faces the more impact the exercise has. Situations where the environment is "on rails" so to speak - such as with a comic book, fantasy novel, or video game lessen the challenge lessen the challenge to your creativity. You don't need to invent characters, backgrounds, or solutions. Media with extensive illustrations (video games and movies especially) limit the challenge of imaginative visualization.
Games like Dungeons and Dragons have a lot of potential to challenge the visualization and creative functions of the human imagination exactly because they don't provide illustration immersion or a fixed environment. Sure, you can play a pure miniature combat game with a "fixed" world and plot-on-rails that only the DM builds creatively but ideally the players bring a bit more of themselves to the table than that.
Does that mean that overly visual, less-creative media harm your capacity to use your imagination? I don't see why they would. Rather, you simply don't gain the benefits of exercising those parts of your imagination you would have received if you'd spent that time in a pursuit that presented a greater challenge to it. It is still "worse for your imagination," but arguing that it is actively harmful seems like a big stretch.
In the same respect, exercises that make large demands on people to create a visualize with very few rules or structures make for lousy exercising in developing tactical or resource-management skills.
- Marty Lund
Exercising the imagination typically focuses on various levels of visualization and creativity. The more challenges your imagination faces the more impact the exercise has. Situations where the environment is "on rails" so to speak - such as with a comic book, fantasy novel, or video game lessen the challenge lessen the challenge to your creativity. You don't need to invent characters, backgrounds, or solutions. Media with extensive illustrations (video games and movies especially) limit the challenge of imaginative visualization.
Games like Dungeons and Dragons have a lot of potential to challenge the visualization and creative functions of the human imagination exactly because they don't provide illustration immersion or a fixed environment. Sure, you can play a pure miniature combat game with a "fixed" world and plot-on-rails that only the DM builds creatively but ideally the players bring a bit more of themselves to the table than that.
Does that mean that overly visual, less-creative media harm your capacity to use your imagination? I don't see why they would. Rather, you simply don't gain the benefits of exercising those parts of your imagination you would have received if you'd spent that time in a pursuit that presented a greater challenge to it. It is still "worse for your imagination," but arguing that it is actively harmful seems like a big stretch.
In the same respect, exercises that make large demands on people to create a visualize with very few rules or structures make for lousy exercising in developing tactical or resource-management skills.
- Marty Lund
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But what about your rep?!
I played WoW for about 9 months, sometimes up to 10-15 hours a week. Personally, I found it very inspiring. The wealth of fantastic locations and variety of challenges gave me a lot to think about in terms of creating stories, and the character building gave me a lot to think about in terms of developing game mechanics. The sense of wonder on hitting a new zone, or entering a new instance, was pretty impressive. I mean, how can you not be amazed when you hit Silithas and see the swarms of bugs swirling like a maelstrom over the ruined landscape (to give one example)?
I never really wanted to do the repetive "grinds" for gear and rep that make up so much of the "endgame" level of play, and the raiding scene was a no-go both because of the repetition and also because of family and things, so once I had seen everything else the game had to offer, I quit. Nonetheless, I still think there's a lot of inspiration to be found in WoW. Maybe the contention that WoW kills imagination has something to do with how it's played. Any activity, when taken to the extreme of repetition, becomes drudgery. Drudgery does nothing to inspire me, personally.
I never really wanted to do the repetive "grinds" for gear and rep that make up so much of the "endgame" level of play, and the raiding scene was a no-go both because of the repetition and also because of family and things, so once I had seen everything else the game had to offer, I quit. Nonetheless, I still think there's a lot of inspiration to be found in WoW. Maybe the contention that WoW kills imagination has something to do with how it's played. Any activity, when taken to the extreme of repetition, becomes drudgery. Drudgery does nothing to inspire me, personally.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Certainly you can do it at 3 am on a Tuesday morning when you can't sleep. Calling up your D&D group at 3 am on a Tuesday and trying the same thing usually gets a pretty unpleasant response.
I find this whole argument a little silly, though. It's not an either/or proposition between WoW and D&D, and the notion that people with addictive personalities go overboard with it somehow means that it's digital cocaine is pretty silly as well.
I play a few hours a week -- and that includes 25-man raids, 10-man raids, small group stuff and PvP -- am DMing and playing D&D, raising a one-year old, holding down a 40+ hour a week job and more. And any brain damage I have suffered happened through means other than any sort of gaming.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Oh, and while one can dislike WoW's setting, characters and storyline, it's simply inaccurate to say that it's not there or it's not detailed in the game. Now, this requires actually reading the quests and watching what NPCs do and say, but I'd put Azeroth and Outland up against 99 percent of home D&D campaigns, any day of the week.
Mercurius
Legend
The problem, Christopher, is that I'm not making an "argument" but expressing an opinion. You seem to want to take it as an argument so you can be argumentative presumably because you took great offense to my post.
While I don't want to argue with you as my guess is that we wouldn't get anywhere, but would like to clarify one point. When I wrote "Now I am not saying that any amount of World of Warcraft (or TV) will harm one's imagination" you are simply misreading my intention and running with it. Perhaps I should have emphasized "any", so as to be better understood. Meaning, my view is not that "any amount"--that is, including light amounts--of play will harm the imagination, but that excessive amounts will and do, according to a few posters.
Another clarification:
ProfessorCirno said:
I agree, which is why I clearly wrote that I am using WoW as an example of computer RPGs, as well as that TV is included in the basic rubric of what I am talking about (which makes your own little barb--"kinda dumb"--rather misplaced, don't you think?).
Mercurius
Legend
Thanks for sharing your experience, Foundry of Decay. It is also good to hear that your imagination came back with a bang 
. Actually, it may be that a foray into "losing something" might actually serve it in the long-run for, among other reasons, it brings a new appreciation.
I also agree with you and CountPopeula that such games serve a purpose in terms of just having fun and relaxing. Which is why I say that the problem isn't occasional use, its over-use. But the line between "occasional use" and "over-use" is rather sketchy, not un-like the line between "an occasional donut" and "donuts colonizing one's midrift."
. Actually, it may be that a foray into "losing something" might actually serve it in the long-run for, among other reasons, it brings a new appreciation.I also agree with you and CountPopeula that such games serve a purpose in terms of just having fun and relaxing. Which is why I say that the problem isn't occasional use, its over-use. But the line between "occasional use" and "over-use" is rather sketchy, not un-like the line between "an occasional donut" and "donuts colonizing one's midrift."
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Then stop phrasing stuff as facts. Your posts are littered with assertions phrased as incontrovertible facts. Phrasing things more clearly as opinion would go a long way toward not having an argument, but a discussion instead.
Mercurius
Legend
Of course you know that "no studies" is not proof against. But I think you are disregarding a basic point: "use it or lose it." The more one plays WoW, watches TV, etc, the less they use their imagination, and the less they use their imagination the more it atrophies (or is suppressed). Yet as Foundry of Decay said, it can come back.
As you said, there are no studies, so I don't think we can be totally conclusive, at least in terms of specifics. But as I've said, I have little doubt that CRPGs and TV watching in excessive amounts do actual harm to the imaginative capacity; whether this can be permanent, I don't know. If it can be I think it would have to be really excessive.
I don't understand the question. You mean to play WoW? None--I haven't, at least only briefly checked it out and watched others play.
I don't want to get into a big tangent, but what's your beef with Gardner? His perspective is well-regarded by many psychologists, especially those of a depth/Jungian/transpersonal orientation.
No, but it is flat out wrong. Smoking increases the odds of getting lung cancer.
I disagree, or rather would say that if you want me to be more accurate, I would rephrase that "smoking is a causative factor in lung cancer." I think "increases the odds" is a bit too vague, like something you'd read on a cigarette carton
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