Forked Thread: "The Death of the Imagination" re: World of Warcraft

[Rel]

Secondly, I don't want to insult anyone but I see fan-art and fan-fic as being on the lower scale of imagination. Not all works of imagination are created equal.

Love how you pass judgement on a bunch of art and writing that you haven't read in the same way that you pass judgement on a game you haven't played.

WoW (the CRPG) creates images for you while novels do not. When you read a novel your mind has to work to create images, thus the imaginative "muscle" is exercised. If that muscle is not excercised, or rather, to whatever degree it is not exercised, it will lose strength and capacity. That's not a belief or empty assertion, it is simple logic (once again: "use it or lose it").

See, this is the kind of thing that people have a problem with. I don't think this can be stated as "simple logic" at all.

You seem to be talking about visualization being the definition of imagination. I think that imagination has a much broader definition than that. What about the aspects of imagination that involve creativity and change? If I'm reading a book then the story is dictated to me. If I'm playing an RPG, even a computer RPG then I get some say in what happens next. In fact, by this definition, a CRPG might be BETTER for my imagination than a table top game because I have complete freedom to decide what I want to do next whereas with a tabletop game, I've got to go along with the group concensus or whatever story the GM is putting forth.

I'm by no means stating that as a fact or "simple logic". I'm saying that whatever stimulates our desire to imagine and create is not going to be the same for all of us or even most of us. Different folks have different muses. For every person who is suffering some kind of "suppression" of their imagination due to WoW, there could just as easily be one or more others who find it inspiring, refreshing and yes, even imaginitive.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

For the sake of argument, here's the fan fic/fan art site my wife and I run. It's one of the better-read WoW sites of its kind.

Obviously, we're spinning off the WoW storyline as it progresses and my wife is assembling the art pieces using the in-game art elements before adding additional effects.

While it's not meant to be War and Peace, beyond the overall plot line, it's original stories. That's not the death of imagination unless historical fiction, which likewise uses overall timelines invented by someone other than the author, is too.

Of course, I've been playing MMOs since 2001, so I may just be too shell-shocked to know better.

 

[Hussar]

First of all, what I said has been supported by a few peoples' experience within this thread, as well as those of different educators, psychologists, and other theorists and philosophers. I am also going on my own experience with various media, especially television and, to a lesser degree, the internet. I am also going on other sources, educational theories, etc. So I am not just posting this opinion in a void.

But yeah, I am not surprised that there is resistance to this idea. What is surprising--well, not surprising, but disappointing--is HOW people react, how the resort to ad hominems as part of their disagreement. I mean, why not just disagree? Why go there at all?

Hrm, so far in this thread you've stated the following:

• People who play a lot of WOW are becoming less imaginative
• Fan fic is less imaginative than "real" art. (I wonder where you put adventure creation?)
• Erroneously compared playing WOW with the effects of smoking.

And it's now an ad hominem attack to say that you're 100% wrong? There are no studies that support your point of view, you are claiming elitism for different kinds of imaginative endevours (fanfic is on the low end of creativity - you're words), and then trying to claim some sort of truth out of this?

Come on, "video games are bad for you" is just "TV rots your brain" for the new century. It's unsupported, and has NEVER been shown to be true. TWENTY YEARS they've been trying to prove it in study after study and not once has it been true.

 

[Hussar]

ANother thought occurs Mercurius.

If amateur fanfic is less imaginative than other things, where do you rate campaign setting creation? And, if they're rated differently, why?

 

[Shadeydm]

Being a scientist I would say that this is absolutely not correct. Anecdotal evidence is data. It might not be compelling data, but it is data. The genesis of a lot of studies is anecdotal evidence as initial data (this is the entire point of publishing case studies in medical literature).

Sorry..i just HATE this particular quip.

Thank you, Thank you Thank you

 

[Dire Bare]

I don't understand the question. You mean to play WoW? None--I haven't, at least only briefly checked it out and watched others play.

Ah, so you speak from direct experience then.

 

[Krug]

I would say I've been a semi-hardcore player of WOW, and would say it's often a game of chasing stats. Right now I focus on two characters; a hunter and a shaman healer, and it's basically comes down to what gear you have. Most WOW players don't really care about the lore, and sometimes you wonder if Blizzard cares that much about it.

I still raid occasionally, and it's nice to defeat beasties, but there's not much real accomplishment. Sure there's excitement about getting a 'boss' down, but feeling like you've really done something, especially since the boss will be there next time around to be looted and slain again? Even worse, your group probably knows EXACTLY what's behind the corner, and the precise strategy to utilise to fight it, or for bosses, what happens when. ("ok after two minutes he's going to fire shadowbolts so step THERE to avoid it...") There's hardly any surprise. I think for the bulk of WOW players the game isn't about role-playing, it's about strategy and tactics.

Right now, while waiting for the next expansion, so much of it feels like work, particularly if you're doing 'dailies'; those quests that reset on a daily basis so you can do them again in order to obtain gold.

I don't deny it's a very well done game. I mean I've been a subscriber for 2-3 years now. I would play tabletop RPGs if I could find the people or the time, but WOW is the best substitute for me right now.

I've played on a RP server and find that most players leave after being disappointed with the RP. It's just not sustainable in a world where pretty much everything is fixed and unchanging.

That said, I'm eagerly awaiting DDI. I want to be surprised and engaged, and for encounters to have some mystery.

 

[Steely Dan]

-How do you know if someone's been playing WoW in your house?


-Your garbage cans are empty and your sister's pregnant.

 

[cangrejoide]

I could stop grinding EN World any time, but I choose not to.

Cool, at 20,000 posts/faction you get a the Uber caster dagger that soo beats the one from SSC!

you should check the AH to buy your last posts, not cheap but faster.

 

[Jack99]

Of course you know that "no studies" is not proof against. But I think you are disregarding a basic point: "use it or lose it." The more one plays WoW, watches TV, etc, the less they use their imagination, and the less they use their imagination the more it atrophies (or is suppressed). Yet as Foundry of Decay said, it can come back.

As you said, there are no studies, so I don't think we can be totally conclusive, at least in terms of specifics. But as I've said, I have little doubt that CRPGs and TV watching in excessive amounts do actual harm to the imaginative capacity; whether this can be permanent, I don't know. If it can be I think it would have to be really excessive.

What I meant was that the studies that have been made (at least in my country) have all failed to prove what you are claiming, with regards to video games. This is important, because, from what I have read, there is a huge difference between the activity of your brain when you play a game like WoW, and when you watch television. So, based on what I agree, and personal experience, I would say that I agree with your theory, when it comes to sitting in front of the television, but not when playing games.

I don't understand the question. You mean to play WoW? None--I haven't, at least only briefly checked it out and watched others play.

So, I should have typed it out, RE = Ruin Explorer, who said he was a bigtime WoW player from the get go. There were only 12 servers IIRC on launch, so I figured there was a decent chance that we had played on the same server.

I don't want to get into a big tangent, but what's your beef with Gardner? His perspective is well-regarded by many psychologists, especially those of a depth/Jungian/transpersonal orientation.

He has some great ideas and points, but there is a a few too many people over here that take all he wrote on the many intelligences as if it was from the Bibel, and thus demand that teaching in our schools should be done according to his principles. Which is fine in theory, but very hard to implement in practice (I am a teacher)

I disagree, or rather would say that if you want me to be more accurate, I would rephrase that "smoking is a causative factor in lung cancer." I think "increases the odds" is a bit too vague, like something you'd read on a cigarette carton

It was just a joke. It's what I tell all the lung surgeons who constantly nag me and tell me to quit smoking.

Cheers