3.5e -- What REALLY needed fixing?

[Desdichado]

Seriously; I think mid to high level play was really clunky and tedious.

I also think that once you got to multiple attacks per round that combat got really boring. Suddenly, doing anything at all interesting during combat became suboptimal compared to just standing and full-attacking.

 

[Foundry of Decay]

The biggest problems for myself (and to a lesser extent, my group):

- Spell Lists for NPC's: I could rarely use anything other than sorcerers or the Dragonlance equivalent for clerics (I forget the class name) for enemies simply because pouring over a laundry list of spells for an enemy that wouldn't last more than perhaps 1 or 2 rounds was a huge waste of time.. Which brings me to..

- Enemy nuke: At mid levels this started to become a problem when you'd have a BBEG lose initiative and get wiped off the map outright in the first round or two after the ranged party members unleashed on them. This was especially bad when the BBEG was a caster type. Those D4 hp don't go too far.

- Fight/rest/fight/rest syndrome: Or the 15 min. work day. While I had house rules in place for some situations, and had to load the group up with healing potions from the start (more so if there wasn't a cleric in the group), I disliked the need to rest so often after clearing one or two encounter.

- Iterative attacks: These started to bog things down in our games. Even with rolling say 3 d20's at once along with any damage dice, it still took ages for it all to be added up. Even more so if any one of those attacks were a crit. This was compounded to ridiculous levels when I had a 2 weapon fighter who could easily take up a good 10 min. of a fight just on their turn alone.

- Low starting HP/Swingy HP: Self explanatory.

- CR system: I never cared for the CR system as much more than something to help me eyeball how hard an encounter would be.

- Monster advancement: To this day I'm sure I still advanced monsters incorrectly. Even worse is that for some inexplicable reason if you advanced a monster by a few levels they would gain a size category.

- Magic dependance: Self explanatory.

- Magic item creation: Didn't much care for the xp costs or the strange math required to create items.

- Save or Die effects: Self explanatory.

- Condition tracking: Self explanatory.

That's my list, anyway.

 

[Solodan]

I don't know that it could be fixed in a 3.5 system, but disproportionate leveling.

Some levels are huge, some are so minor it almost doesn't mean a thing. Probably the first huge level is wizard 4-5. A +1 BAB class getting the first iterative attack isn't half bad either.

But, that system can't really be fixed without a MAJOR overhaul.

 

[Remathilis]

My list of pet peeves. Its actually not that big...

1.) Unrestricted (laissez-faire) multi-classing. It lead to cherry-picking and its evil twin: suckage builds. It was really easy to build a character who could no longer fill his "spot" in the group and spread himself thin.

2.) Prestige Classes. Such a good idea at the time. Unfortunately, they had to balance against the base classes, which were lacking in oumph. So you ended up with PrCs that, in order to introduce something "cool" often had to neuter the PrCs primary function (spellcasting levels every other level, skill-monkey classes with 4 skill points, warrior types with 3/4 bab and/or d8 hd). While in theory this made for a "trade off" between a PrCs power and a base classes versatility, it often meant "balanced" PrCs were left untaken and broken ones (RSoP anyone?) were no brainers. Hundreds of good ideas lay in the PrC dustbin, victims of "balancing" that made them weak or poor choices (looks at dragon disciple...)

3.) Ability Score Modification mid-game. It seemed so easy: set ability scores on a simple slide-scale, and then allow the game to raise/lower your score and gain the benefits/penalties associated with it! Sadly, it meant a lot of math. Bob's Str was raised by 4 points, he got hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement for 6 str, and he's taken 2 points of Str damage. Whats my "to hit" again? It also meant the DM had to look up the stat-block everytime a foe was poisoned, bull strengthed, or any of the hundred-other stat-changing effects 3e had. Speaking of which...

4.) HUGE stat blocks. Lots of things for a DM to remember to apply every round (DR, SR, Resistances, Immunities, Regeneration/Fast Healing, Ongoing spell effects, etc) that could make or break a combat. Far to many "vanity" effects that didn't help the monster out (do Demons really need "detect good?").

5.) Summoning. Oh god. A high level caster who focuses on summoning often took 2-3 times as long as anyone else to complete their turn. He could easily have multiple monsters to activate, resolve, etc, and then take his own turn to boot! No joke, a high level wizard I saw took 15 minutes to resolve his turn EVERY ROUND due to summons, spellcasting, and magical item use.

6.) Long, High-level Combat in General: High level D&D falls into two categories: over in a round, or grab yourself a cold one, its gonna be a while. If the caster(s) can't down it in a round, your in for a long night of full-attack actions, summoning, animal companions/familiars/like, spell-looking-up, SR, DR, spell-like-abilities which are in the PHB, not MM, multiple buffs/debuffs, and other "When is it my turn?" action. Wake me when its my turn...

7.) Whats that do again? So much book-looking up! How do I resolve a grapple? Whats the Save DC for Harm? What does a Pink Rhioband Ioun Stone do again? How do you resolve a Web spell? Whats the DC for Dispel Magic? The Vrock has Unholy Word, what does that do again?

8.) Total Eclipse of the Non-caster. Right around that name-level/double digit point in D&D, spellcasters take off like rockets and non-magical "melee" classes are left in the dust. CoDzilla replaces the need for fighters, wizards with scrolls and wands no longer need rogues. Non-casters rely much heavier on magical gear to keep pace, and still lose do to the versatility a cleric or mage has to tailor himself to a specific encounter.

9.) Over-reliance on "big-six" magical items. Magic swords are good. Magic Armor is cool. Requiring a PC to have +X items in order to survive? Bad. The flaw of accounting for magic items in the math is that you know NEED said items. Every PC buys, makes, earns or steals a magical weapon, magical armor/bracers/robe, a cloak of resistance, a ring of protection, an amulet of Natural Armor, Boots of Striding/Springing, and A stat-booster item. Typically, that meant that 4-6 item slots were filled with "necessities" that left little room for "cool stuff". Cloak of Resistance or Cloak of the Bat? Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Gauntlets of Missile Snaring? Those other items were usually bundled and sold to buy big six items because...

10.) The Math doesn't scale. The difference between good and poor saves becomes so pronounced at high level, that targeting a "poor save" is always the best tactic. A high level rogue cannot possibly fail most reflex saves (barring a 1) and he cannot make the same DC will save (barring a 20). While it appears to be a valid tactical choice, it leads to a lot of charmed/dominated/held fighters, a lot of SoD on the wizard, a lot of poisoned rogues, and a lot of "just nuke him" clerics. Similarly, the ACs a fighter can hit without effort on his first attack the monk or rogue cannot hit on a good day (aka the flurry of misses). HP becomes ridiculous, and the game becomes very "exception" based, requiring "alternate" attacks like Save or Die to be remotely effective at "challenging" the other side (be it PCs or Monsters).

So is the problem with D&D. So far I'm happy 4e has fixed these problems for me, and I'm sure that unless Pathfinder re-wrote 3.5e from the ground up (not likely, due to compatibility issues) I'm sure they will remain.

 

[Ahnehnois]

(I'm considering 3.5 as including most supplements, not just core)

-Inequality among the six ability scores.
-Some high-level spells are too powerful
-Infinite possibility spells (polymorph and related)
-Caster save DCs too complicated
-Casters don't have at-will powers (at least not until warlock, etc.)
-No class defense bonus (related to this: confusion between ref saves and AC)
-Damage doesn't cause harm (i.e. you're fine until you start dying)
-Healing is too easy (with and without magic)
-Resurrection is too easy
-Magic Item dependency
-Complicated buff spells
-Dead levels
-Prestige class proliferation
-Skills don't advance unless you advance them
-Not enough skill points to spread around
-Racial inequality (in the sense that half-elves suck, I mean)
-Race doesn't influence the character as much at high levels
-Races often suck for their "favored class" (see elven wizards)
-There's just too many rules


Many of these problems are either unavoidable (see last entry) or are dealt with in 4e (with varying results, IMO)

 

[Delta]

In general, I thought that 3.5 was a big slip-up compared to what came before; I never used anything past 3E. If I was fixing 3.5 I'd first go back to 3.0 and then make some minor modifications.

Now, I'll basically jump in and flag the ones in the current OP list I agree with. The others (i.e., most of them) I disagree with.

--Statting up NPCs, including skill points too fiddly for DMs statting up monsters/NPS (but not PCs--most players seem to like the customization)
--AoOs too confusing/too many instances to remember
--Scry-Buff-Teleport-Fly combo repeated ad nauseum, and campaign-breaking spells/magic in general (for some this includes resurrection et al)
--buffing etc., especially remembering which buffs/effects/modifiers are affecting whom and for how long
--Spell prep takes too long; spell-list resource management too cumbersome

Regarding fiddly skill points, I *do* consider those an aggravation for PCs as well (esp., point-of-view of new players tothe game). My players responded very well to suggesting the UA "skills by level" plan that disposes of individual skill point allocation.

Some of the stuff above didn't exist in prior editions, and would be easily solved by stepping backwards a bit. Spell prep time is partly because 3E plastered on a bunch more spell slots as part of eternal power creep (esp. cantrips); undo that. Buffing issues were aggravated when they expanded the long-time "Strength" spell to cover every other ability; undo that. For those who mentioned the DR "golf bag" issue, that didn't exist until 3.5; undo that, too.

When I'm working on my house rules, the prior things I try to get down from 3E are -- reduce PC & NPC construction time (fewer feat & skill choices), reduce overwhelming cleric spell selection, possibly reduce available healing (cleric spells/powers), reduce numbers of magic items (with a simple 5-item cap), etc. There's also some very specific spells I have grief with, but not nearly as many as 3.5 screwed around with.

 

[Mircoles]

I got this definition of "CoDzilla" from the Urban Dictionary.

Refers to a specific sort of character in a Dungeons and Dragons game. A CoDzilla is a Cleric or Druid who excels in one field, such as melee damage, far beyond the limits of any other class, while still more than capable at anything else he or she chooses. While a Fighter might have good consistent attack power, or a Sorceror a broader selection of spells, a CoDzilla can outdo either at any given moment and still be ready to do it again.
"You can survive multiple direct hits from an iron golem, you can cleave its head off in a handful of attacks, you can heal the rest of the party to full, you can drive away scores of undead, and you still have enough time for a cup of tea?"
"Behold the awesome might of CoDzilla."

 

[Plane Sailing]

So I ask: What else REALLY needed to be fixed (i.e. really large numbers of players had trouble with it) and could EASILY be fixed without destroying backwards compatibility.

I would have a much smaller list than you of things that I think REALLY needed to be fixed.

For my money it would be:

Change everything which cause knock-on recalculation.
Anything which increases or decreases an ability score means that tons of other stuff gets recalculated (saves, skills, attacks...). This ripple-through effect could be a pain to manage. Probable solution? Make everything give a primary benefit directly, rather than a knock on effect (e.g. "Bulls strength gives +2 hit and damage and skill checks" or something similar)

Eliminate stacking problems.
Stacking of multiple overlapping and additive bonuses is a pain to keep track of, especially at higher levels when things get shuffled around during the combat. e.g. the prayer always works (except for the guy who has the luckstone), the bless doesn't have any effect at the moment because the bard is singing, but 5r after he stops singing it will give a benefit, the magic circle against evil is giving everyone +2 ST and +2 AC except for those two guys who already have +3 cloaks and that chap who has a +2 ring; the guy with a dozen magic effects on him and 6 of them are taken off by dispel magic etc. etc.

Individually they are small bonuses and would be easy to add up, but the dynamic way they interact and change throughout a melee was a pain - and the reason why all our DMs used electronic tools to support their game.

Caster Multiclass problems
Partially solved via prestige class solutions, but that was really a patch - a complete solution would have been better (some have been suggested up-thread)

Full attacks encouraged static combat
High level fighter types could churn out the damage if they stood still and did full attacks - often far more than the wizards could do to a single target - but it tended to mean that most fights devolved into 'move to nearest target - full attack until dead - move to next target".

Non-spellcasters lacked interesting options
The one time I played a basic fighter rather than a class with some casting ability, I found it quite frustrating that I had very few real options. I could attack things with my sword, or use a missile weapon, and had a few 'tactical' options (grapple, disarm, trip etc), but many of those were not much actual use. The caster classes (even the partial caster classes) had interesting additional options both inside and outside combat.

There are plenty of little 'flavour' things which I would have liked to see changed (or even reverted from 3.5 to 3.0 style), but the above are the only things that I thought could really do with being addressed.

Cheers

 

[der_kluge]

Artificer's Handbook? Where is this from?

You can find the full version on rpgnow.com.

Or, download this:
http://www.mediafire.com/?hmj2zmwundk

And is advancement arbitrary without XP? What is your method?

Arbitrary. I coincide advancement with story.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Here's the original context:
"the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?)."

Draconic Wildshape is actually quite balanced. You can't get it until level 12, it limits you to small and medium dragons, and so on. It gives some versatility, but by that point the breath attacks are pretty sad. Even the Reserve feats are outdamaging them. As for Divine Metamagic, it's not broken. Persistent Spell is. It's a common misconception.

As for the things that I find wrong:

-Takes too long to build a classed NPC, it'd be nice to just have books full of different premade builds for each class and each level. I'd pay handsomely for that.

-Grapple rules aren't complicated enough. Yeah, you heard me. It's too simplified. I want specific rules for side-guard pinning, and joint locks, arm bars, rules for chokes that cut off bloodflow versus airflow... Really, I'm just very sad ToB didn't make a grappling focused discipline to cover these things.

-There's no built-in hindrance to make casters think twice about spell dumping their heaviest hitters right away. I'd like some kind of rule to force them to wait till later rounds to use higher level spells (same for psionics and intiators) or something, to balance fights more, as well as make them more cinematic, where the big guns are saved for the final blow.

-I hate all spells that make a skill obsolete. Any such spell should add CL bonus to the check and let the recipient count as being trained in the skill, if it matters. So, Charm Person would add to Diplomacy, Knock would make the caster about as good as a Rogue at lockpicking, etc...

-Save or Dies. These were a sacred cow that needed to be killed. I'm trying to make a version where it instead leaves the person at -9 and bleeding, so if he has allies, they have a chance to save him, but keep finding technical problems in making it actually work as intended.

-Reliance on magic items, especially by the people who can't cast magic. There's now rules like dragonscale husk, VoP, and so on, but there should be more ways to escape the problem. That said, I like the wealth of options and items available. Reading MIC literally made me feel like the main guy from Duck Tales, diving into a giant pile of gold coins, feeling giddy. Probably the best thing to do is just accept standard D&D is magic item heavy, and make houserules for the occasional low-magic game.

-Random stat rolls and hp. This is one thing 4E did right, and I've advocated static numbers for these hugely important figures to my friends for years to no avail. Point buy should be the standard option, not rolling. It may seem small, but when faced with a DM insistent on using rolling, you have a better arguing position to also allow point buy if it's HIM who's trying to use the houserule. I'm sick of feeling helpless in new games to the DM's whim of rolling, knowing I'll probably get poor results that make my character concept impossible.

-Odd stats aren't worth ! There's no reason for this. You could make all opposed ability checks add score instead of modifier, for starters. Also, I believe the current rules are for any opposed roll (and initiative): higher mod wins, if the modifers are the same, reroll. Why not, if modifiers are the same, check to see if one has a higher score in the corresponding ability, and only after THAT reroll? It's little things, but there's no reason not to incorporate them.

-Flanking isn't harsh enough. A +2 to hit is pretty trivial, considering how bad it is to be surrounded. It's nasty with Rogues, sure, but I think the general benefit should be increased a bit. Not sure how, though.

-Monster stuff such as how much natural armor they get at a given CR is way too random, with no real rhyme or reason. Which makes it a pain to design new ones.

-Races should get to choose favored class from a list. Just one option is too limiting, and it'd be nice to get some non-core classes as favored options.

-Spellcasting prestige classes fell into two categories: full casting progression and no reason not to take, and not full casting / crazy prereqs and never worth taking, with no middle ground.

-Severe racial imbalance. Humans and Dwarves just blow the rest out of the water, and the half races are beyond useless.

There's more, that's just all I can think of right now. Despite that large list, most of those are easily fixable, unlike those with any other edition of the game, all of which would also comprise a much longer list of issues.