D&D 4E Just played my first 4E game

[Brennin Magalus]

This whole comparison that 4e is a video game is bogus.

Ahem. The argument is that 4e is like a video game, not that it is a video game, and that has been established to my satisfaction.

It's the other way around. Video games emulate D&D.

Something that has been influenced by something else can, in turn, influence the original. Amazing, but true!

 

[Fenes]

Oh Noes! 4th edition has given us flavour for races we must use it or our games will spontaneously combust.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but really if you don't like the fluff change it/don't use it, your campaign doesn't have room for another two races erm Ok I'm not going to criticise you for that.

Your setting wants to be low magic, well theres a few threads which have explained how to do this if you want to use 4th ed, from allowing Martial only classes (you can still have healing covered either with just healing surges or add a warlord in) to automatically adding in attack and defence bonus the characters are expected to get at certain levels.

I posted numerous times that I'll not use Dragonborn. I have lizardfolk for that, should anyone want to play a scaly PC. But generally, such freaks will be shunned by most humans and other civilised races in my campaign, we're not playing "sigil light" where everyone accepts reptiles in their neighborhood.

And tieflings - the PS tiefling beats the 4E tiefling since it can offer everything, from looks to backstory, that the 4E offers, yet offers far more possible looks and backgrounds. So, I see no reason at all to limit my campaign to the very narrow 4E tiefling.

As far as the 4E rules are concerned, so far they are not offering enough options to make switching an option - not enough classes, not enough customisations, no performance skill, not enough charm spells and other "fluffy" spells.

And our martial classes do just fine with the ToB.

So, what exactly does 4E offer to me at this point? Half the PC's can't be converted because their classes or prestige classes are not around yet. The fluff is not usable, and the new races are either unsuited or too limited. And for combat action, Bo9S offers lots of styles and stunts already, not that combat is that central to our campaign - we go more for plots, intrigue, and social situations.

Once 4E has (a lot) more options, especially out of combat, this may change.

 

[AtomicPope]

The default setting is PoL. That was stated lots of times. They also provided a lot of background. That they haven't names for details is a design decision - it's PoL. They do have names for the old empires of the new races.

And compared to 3E, the corebooks offer more details - 3E was way more generic, and homebrew-friendly, none of the races there had an implied history like the new races have.

That was interesting, the way you completely ignored a WotC item you told me to read so I did. Then I quoted it here:

We want players like you to use the elements of D&D's product identity to create your own world

It's do it yourself.

 

[AtomicPope]

I posted numerous times that I'll not use Dragonborn. I have lizardfolk for that, should anyone want to play a scaly PC. But generally, such freaks will be shunned by most humans and other civilised races in my campaign, we're not playing "sigil light" where everyone accepts reptiles in their neighborhood.

And tieflings - the PS tiefling beats the 4E tiefling since it can offer everything, from looks to backstory, that the 4E offers, yet offers far more possible looks and backgrounds. So, I see no reason at all to limit my campaign to the very narrow 4E tiefling.

As far as the 4E rules are concerned, so far they are not offering enough options to make switching an option - not enough classes, not enough customisations, no performance skill, not enough charm spells and other "fluffy" spells.

And our martial classes do just fine with the ToB.

So, what exactly does 4E offer to me at this point? Half the PC's can't be converted because their classes or prestige classes are not around yet. The fluff is not usable, and the new races are either unsuited or too limited. And for combat action, Bo9S offers lots of styles and stunts already, not that combat is that central to our campaign - we go more for plots, intrigue, and social situations.

Once 4E has (a lot) more options, especially out of combat, this may change.

What?

You just turned down every PC backstory for new races thus destroying plots, intrigue and social situations only and complain about Prestige Classes and Classes only to end the post with:

Once 4E has (a lot) more options, especially out of combat, this may change.

Since when are 3e classes filled with plots, intrigue, and social situations? Since when are Classes and Prestige Classes about out of combat options? They never have been. Classes and Prestige classes are about combat and powers that are useful in combat. When does 3e provide more out of combat options than 4e? How much experience do you give PC's for negotiating with NPC's? Give me the 3e book and page number for a 12th level negotiation. How much experience do you give PC's for researching the location of the Hands of Tzunk? Give me the 3e book and page number because I'd like to know. There are no hard and fast rules giving complex, roleplaying experience in 3e. Whatever you think 4e is lacking in roleplaying when compared to 3e is very short sighted.

 

[Fenes]

What?

You just turned down every PC backstory for new races thus destroying plots, intrigue and social situations only and complain about Prestige Classes and Classes only to end the post with:

Since when are 3e classes filled with plots, intrigue, and social situations? Since when are Classes and Prestige Classes about out of combat options? They never have been. Classes and Prestige classes are about combat and powers that are useful in combat. When does 3e provide more out of combat options than 4e? How much experience do you give PC's for negotiating with NPC's? Give me the 3e book and page number for a 12th level negotiation. How much experience do you give PC's for researching the location of the Hands of Tzunk? Give me the 3e book and page number because I'd like to know. There are no hard and fast rules giving complex, roleplaying experience in 3e. Whatever you think 4e is lacking in roleplaying when compared to 3e is very short sighted.

4E offers me nothing 3E does not offer as well - and not enough of what 3E offers me right now. 3E offers various skills - like, for example, Perfom, something that's seriously lacking from 4E - and a crafting system.

And if you think Presitge Classes are all about combat, then you never read them. There are tons of Prestige Classes, especially 3rd party ones, that are not combat focussed.

And in case you missed it: I already did what the page told me to - I use WotC elemtns to build my setting, but the 4E parts the yoffer don't fit my taste nor world.

As far as experience goes - we don't use experience anymore, haven't used it for years, so I couldn't care less about what the reward was for finding out something. However, if we would use XP, then I'd simply set a value I deemed appropriate, you know, as people do when writing their own adventures.

About destroying plots by not letting stupid cheap and bland stuff like the 4E races fluff in. Compared to the plot hooks 2E and 3E fluff offers, there's no comparision.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

4E offers me nothing 3E does not offer as well - and not enough of what 3E offers me right now.

I'll trust you on that, mostly. The wealth of classes (core and prestige) in 3E is amazing. But for me, those numbers are not as important as the question on how well they work, and I've had far more trouble with that in the past. A lot of the classes just never appealed to me. I am really seeing the value of having less core classes in the beginning if I know that in the end, they will all be equally valid and interesting. Too much of the 3E material I own never got used - and I've made quite a few characters and ran a few d20 and 3E related campaigns...

3E offers various skills - like, for example, Perfom, something that's seriously lacking from 4E - and a crafting system.

What do you mean by "seriously" lacking? Do you use the system that often? We have had 2 campaigns with a Bard character, and Perform was only ever relevant when he was using it to generate a bardic music effect. Did you often ran some kind of "Craft & Performance Competitions" in your game that the skill values mattered much? Because for most intents and purposes, the fact that a Bard was described as a performer was enough for us to know that he was good at it. The skill ranks spend on Perform where mostly a "tax" on being a Bard.

And if you think Presitge Classes are all about combat, then you never read them. There are tons of Prestige Classes, especially 3rd party ones, that are not combat focussed.

I agree. Not all PrCs are all about combat power, though most still just give you extra benefits and try to keep your "core" ability intact. Of course, the PrCs discussed on this and the WotC forums are usually those that are focused on power.

And in case you missed it: I already did what the page told me to - I use WotC elemtns to build my setting, but the 4E parts the yoffer don't fit my taste nor world.

As far as experience goes - we don't use experience anymore, haven't used it for years, so I couldn't care less about what the reward was for finding out something. However, if we would use XP, then I'd simply set a value I deemed appropriate, you know, as people do when writing their own adventures.

About destroying plots by not letting stupid cheap and bland stuff like the 4E races fluff in. Compared to the plot hooks 2E and 3E fluff offers, there's no comparision.

An interesting observation - you've house-ruled your game so much that it in many regards is no longer a "real "3E". No surprise you don't feel the need for change - you already changed all the stuff you might not have liked. And obviously, you would have to do the same for 4E, so why bother?

Well, I think there are a few reasons, because some core changes to 4E just make the game flow better, and I don't feel like house-ruling 3E could achieve the same.

 

[AtomicPope]

4E offers me nothing 3E does not offer as well - and not enough of what 3E offers me right now. 3E offers various skills - like, for example, Perfom, something that's seriously lacking from 4E - and a crafting system.

And if you think Presitge Classes are all about combat, then you never read them. There are tons of Prestige Classes, especially 3rd party ones, that are not combat focussed.

Don't insult me and say I've never read anything, then provide no examples of 3e material. Where are your examples?

What "Crafting" system? There are no hard and fast rules for making money using the craft skill.

First of all, third party isn't WotC so it isn't official. That has no bearing on 3e as a system.

And in case you missed it: I already did what the page told me to - I use WotC elemtns to build my setting, but the 4E parts the yoffer don't fit my taste nor world.

The page reference explained that there is no default setting. But I'm glad to know you're using a 4e mindset for creating your campaign world.

As far as experience goes - we don't use experience anymore, haven't used it for years, so I couldn't care less about what the reward was for finding out something. However, if we would use XP, then I'd simply set a value I deemed appropriate, you know, as people do when writing their own adventures.

Again, this has nothing to do with the 4e system whatsoever. Nor is it any reflection on the greatness of 3e, or 2e, or 1e or Basic, or Chainmail. Your houserules are completely independent of all that is D&D. Willy-nilly distribution of exp isn't well supported by any edition except for 4e because it's encounter based. How many encounters per level in 4e? You don't know because you've never gave 4e a fair shake.

Look up in 3.0 DMG on page 169 and you find:

Roleplaying XP awards are purely ad hoc. That is, there is no system for assigning Challenge Ratings to bits of roelplaying.

So you are incorrect. As a system, 3e provides no help with roleplaying. None.

About destroying plots by not letting stupid cheap and bland stuff like the 4E races fluff in. Compared to the plot hooks 2E and 3E fluff offers, there's no comparision.

How is it that all things 4e are stupid, cheap, bland and all things non-4e are teh kewl? Where are your examples? What plot hooks? It's clear to me that you're just making pot-shots at 4e. Don't turn this into a version bash. If you don't want to change to 4e because you're comfortable with Houserule version 3.x then that's fine. Houserules have nothing to do with 3e as a system. The only thing your post exposes is your unwillingness to give a new system a fair shake and your bitterness at having to adjust any of your houserules to it. And that's not a 3e vs 4e system comparison at all.

 

[Fenes]

I'll trust you on that, mostly. The wealth of classes (core and prestige) in 3E is amazing. But for me, those numbers are not as important as the question on how well they work, and I've had far more trouble with that in the past. A lot of the classes just never appealed to me. I am really seeing the value of having less core classes in the beginning if I know that in the end, they will all be equally valid and interesting. Too much of the 3E material I own never got used - and I've made quite a few characters and ran a few d20 and 3E related campaigns...

If all your PC's classes and prestige classes are not represented well or at all (Blade dancer, duelist/swashbuckler, weapon master, barbarian, sorcerer) then it0s not so much about having unused options, it's about not having the options to run the game you like. I don't really care that much about tons of classes I'll never use, but it's kind of telling that with one expection, between two groups, I can only cover one PC concept with a 4E core class so far, and that's a cleric...

What do you mean by "seriously" lacking? Do you use the system that often? We have had 2 campaigns with a Bard character, and Perform was only ever relevant when he was using it to generate a bardic music effect. Did you often ran some kind of "Craft & Performance Competitions" in your game that the skill values mattered much? Because for most intents and purposes, the fact that a Bard was described as a performer was enough for us to know that he was good at it. The skill ranks spend on Perform where mostly a "tax" on being a Bard.

If we have a charater with perform in our group, then performances come up in almost every session, by NPCs and by PCs. They are key to get into places, impress and influence NPCs, and upstage rivals. Getting special training by noted performers or colleges or schools can be entire suplots or side quests - or even themain quest. And then there are, of course, competitions. And then there are monsters and NPCs with ties to performers or the art, ranging from fey to angels and even gods.
When I ran a bard as a player, it was the same - I'd not have played a game where such an importance aspect of my character, the core aspect even, would have been relegated to combat buffing.

An interesting observation - you've house-ruled your game so much that it in many regards is no longer a "real "3E". No surprise you don't feel the need for change - you already changed all the stuff you might not have liked. And obviously, you would have to do the same for 4E, so why bother?

That's the point. I don't feel like reinventing all the stuff again. At this point, 4E looks really limited to me. Once we get all the missing classes (bard and sorcerer, monk and barbarian for starters) I'll take another look.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

<snip>

AtomicPope, you should calm down a little! It's not the end of the world or a deadly insult if Fenes doesn't like 4E! And it won't take away the fun you (and me) have with the game!

 

[Fenes]

Don't insult me and say I've never read anything, then provide no examples of 3e material. Where are your examples?

What "Crafting" system? There are no hard and fast rules for making money using the craft skill.

First of all, third party isn't WotC so it isn't official. That has no bearing on 3e as a system.

That is telling me enough about you. If you consider the 3rd party products as having no bearing on 3E, then any further discussion is useless. The system incorporates such products.

The page reference explained that there is no default setting. But I'm glad to know you're using a 4e mindset for creating your campaign world.

I am using a 2E mindset, actually.

Again, this has nothing to do with the 4e system whatsoever. Nor is it any reflection on the greatness of 3e, or 2e, or 1e or Basic, or Chainmail. Your houserules are completely independent of all that is D&D. Willy-nilly distribution of exp isn't well supported by any edition except for 4e because it's encounter based. How many encounters per level in 4e? You don't know because you've never gave 4e a fair shake.

Look up in 3.0 DMG on page 169 and you find:

So you are incorrect. As a system, 3e provides no help with roleplaying. None.

On the contrary. It offers enough, and is flexible enough to be completely run with rp exp. I haven't bothered with "encounters per level" even before we started with our very first 3E campaign, back when it was just coming out and we didn't even have the DMG yet.

How is it that all things 4e are stupid, cheap, bland and all things non-4e are teh kewl? Where are your examples? What plot hooks? It's clear to me that you're just making pot-shots at 4e, tossing insults about because you're a hater.

The fluff of 4E looks very bland and stupid to me, limiting and cheap. I'd bother with examples (which are obvious for anyone who has read a bit of the backgrounds) if it was not pointless and I'd not ignore you after this post anyway.