Shifting when not adjacent?

So why, after demonizing them, are you trying to be like them?

Am I? I've said quite clearly that there's confusion on this issue and WotC needs to answer it.

Other than that, I've mostly played devil's advocate to make sure that people understand their insistence isn't a logical interpretation of the rules or intent.

In truth, I don't think I'll have to deal with someone with this feat (as a PC or GM) for at least a year so I have no personal investment in an interpretation.

It's clear that you feel that feat is weak if it doesn't work on shifts and teleports, so if you said 'I read it as working this way, these rules back that up, and I think it's best balanced that way and how I'll run it in games I GM' then that's cool.

People misusing 'Specific vs. General' to argue craziness (I'm quite serious that someone argued for polearm gamble hitting someone out of reach when they teleported next to them), I want to debate on general principle to increase the level of intelligent debate.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Other than that, I've mostly played devil's advocate to make sure that people understand their insistence isn't a logical interpretation of the rules or intent.

You're using an illogical interpretation of the rules and intent which cannot be construed as similar to the logical interpretation of the rules?

Why don't you just say you are trolling then leave the thread? A devils advocate argues an unfavorable position logically. It does not argue a neutral position illogically.

If you want to increase the level of debate then state clearly and cleanly why the position is wrong. Otherwise you are doing the opposite.
 

Why ask a question and then provide the right answer.
It's a common rhetorical device. I understand the logic you're using and am trying to point out a flaw in it.

OAs are immediate interrupts, so they occur just before the action that trigger them. An OA is limited to the melee weapons reach being a melee basic or melee at-will attack.
And OA is /also/ limmitted to occuring in adjacent squares, and the Reach quality of a weapon very clearly doesn't alter that. Threatening reach does. Polearm gamble does not. While it's very tempting to assume that Polearm Gamble must function like a 3e AoO with a reach weapon, there's nothing to indicate that it does. OAs are not immediate interrupts, either. They do interrupt the provoking action, but not everything that the rules say about immediate intterupts aply to them.

Typical triggers are limited to leaving an adjacent square. This triggers on entering an adjacent square.
Exactly. Why do you think that leaving a square and entering a square are the same thing? Obviously, they are in the sense that it's hard to do one without doing the other, but why, would PG be phrased the way it is if the two were meant to carry the exact same meaning and implications?

There's no term like 'threatening' in 4e, except, of course, for threatening reach. Threatening reach works the way you seem to want Polearm Gamble to work (and the way I'd certainly prefer it to work), so you have to wonder: why doesn't it give limitted threatening reach instead of a novel trigger for a conventional AoO? Maybe, because it's not meant to work anything like threatening reach. :(

If the target is not valid for a melee basic attack or melee at-will during the time of the trigger then the attack fails, just as any other attack would fail if the target moved out of the way before it was resolved.
I understand the reasoning, it's just reasoning that aplies more to threatening reach or 3e AoOs than to PG.

The odd choice of words in PG only makes sense if the intent is to avoid giving PCs access to 3e style AoOs against non-adjacent targets. Given the fighter's ability to stop an enemy cold with an OA, that's an understandible design decision. It wasn't elaborated upon to a great degree, but then 4e tries (often, too hard) to be concise.


I'd prefer PG to say something like:

Effect: When you wield a pole-arm, you gain threatening reach. However, if you use your threatening reach to take an OA against a non-adjacent enemy, you grant that enemy combat advantage while it is adjacent to you, until the start of your next turn.

Clear and concise. The OA happens in the non-adjacent square, which must be in your reach. Yes, a fighter can stop someone from moving adjacent to him with that OA, partially negating the combat advantage drawback, but shifting (and, of course, teleporting and forced movement) still don't provoke.

Or, if it must deny any hint of threatening reach:

When you wield a pole-arm, you can make an opportunity attack against an enemy who has moved into a square adjacent to you from a non-adjacent square. However, you grant that enemy combat advantage while it is adjacent to you, until the end of it's turn.

At least this makes it a little clearer that the OA happens in the adjacent square (triggering event in the perfect tense), but it does sound a bit clumsy.
 
Last edited:

If you want to increase the level of debate then state clearly and cleanly why the position is wrong. Otherwise you are doing the opposite.

I did. Others did too. The argument that Polearm Gamble "wins" because of 'general vs specific' argument is inherently flawed. Further, the comparison to rules as intended when looking at forced movement and teleport are gruesome.

It's entirely possible that shifting is supposed to trigger, though. The wording there seems specifically different so as to allow OAs for polearm gamble and threatening reach :)
 

And OA is /also/ limmitted to occuring in adjacent squares, and the Reach quality of a weapon very clearly doesn't alter that

No it is not. An OA is only "limited" to occurring in adjacent squares because typical triggers only happen in adjacent squares.

PG does not trigger in adjacent squares, it triggers a square away from adjacent. The only limitation from there would then be the range of the attack that OA's grant. Which is either a melee basic(with a range of melee), or a melee at-will(also with a range of melee). Both of which have range of melee which have a range dependent on the weapon that you use. Polearms all have reach which lets you execute the attack out to the square past adjacent.

I did. Others did too. The argument that Polearm Gamble "wins" because of 'general vs specific' argument is inherently flawed. Further, the comparison to rules as intended when looking at forced movement and teleport are gruesome.

No, you did not. The argument is not inherently flawed, the argument that it does not in however is, unless PG is to do nothing ever and be dead weight in a players feat list.

There is nothing gruesome about the rules in regards to forced movement and teleportation. That is simply you making up problems.
 

Polearms all have reach which lets you execute the attack out to the square past adjacent.

Polearms all have the "Reach" quality:
Reach: With a reach weapon, you can attack enemies that are 2 squares away from you as well as adjacent enemies, with no attack penalty. You can still make opportunity attacks only against adjacent enemies. Likewise, you can flank only an adjacent enemy.

Your polearm contains a limitation that you can only make an opportunity attack against an adjacent enemy.

-Hyp.
 

... Polearm Gamble's specific lets it override that general rule. Right? :)

unless PG is to do nothing ever and be dead weight in a players feat list.

It would still work when a creature moved into an adjacent square, just not when they teleported or were "force" moved. I hardly see how that's dead weight. That's a ludicrous stance.
 
Last edited:

Polearms all have the "Reach" quality:
Reach: With a reach weapon, you can attack enemies that are 2 squares away from you as well as adjacent enemies, with no attack penalty. You can still make opportunity attacks only against adjacent enemies. Likewise, you can flank only an adjacent enemy.

Your polearm contains a limitation that you can only make an opportunity attack against an adjacent enemy.

-Hyp.

:roll:

We both know why that is there and we both know it means nothing regarding the feat polearm gamble.

Stop being disingenuous.
 

... Polearm Gamble's specific lets it override that general rule. Right? :)



It would still work when a creature moved into an adjacent square, just not when they teleported or were "force" moved. I hardly see how that's dead weight. That's a ludicrous stance.

Not according to your argument because the specific rule of triggers over rides the polearm gamble.

At least according to you.
 


Remove ads

Top