Help me grock the warlock

[Saeviomagy]

I think that perhaps hellish rebuke and dire radiance are being misjudged in their usefulness.

On hellish rebuke: The rules only say that a creature knows what conditions you have inflicted upon them, not what conditions you have inflicted upon their buddies. I find it entirely believable that while you might not be able to attract attacks from your target, you can almost certainly attract attacks from some other participant in the fight. I think that the 50% chance of the extra damage triggering is therefore probably a bit low.

On dire radiance: Because of the 'square circle' rules, it's unlikely that a foe hit by dire radiance will be able to re-engage in melee without taking the damage. Further, many melee foes do not have a ranged attack, or have a ranged attack that is incredibly weak when compared with their melee attack. Alternately you can use the power to prevent foes from fleeing melee if you can manage to manuever correctly.

On eyebite: under the new stealth rules, eyebite becomes one of the few ways to regain stealth during a combat without having to all-but leave it. Additionally it targets will, the weakest of all defenses.

Finally pact boons: I think there is a great temptation to use the pact boons (all but star pact), eyebite and hellish rebuke in a defensive manner. Teleport away from foes, use the temporary hitpoints to avoid real damage. This is a tactically bad way to play - the fact that you're brimming with surges will not change things when your buddies run out of them. The better way to use them is to teleport INTO flanking positions, use the temporary hitpoints to trigger hellish rebuke (deliberately stand in flanks, provoke AoOs etc), use eyebite to avoid an AOO to get somewhere tactically useful etc.

Star pact locks should be all about maximising marks before the wizard wipes out minions, then following up with a big daily that benefits from the bonus to hit.

As for teamwork - I think that any character can be built to be a team player. With the warlock it's just that the non-team player aspect is so easy to see.

 

[loisel]

I thought everything on that spreadsheet was (mis)using keyword inheritance to get the bonus, so it's not like the warlock would be especially hindered.

When you use a flaming weapon (or, one supposes, a frost weapon), you do get keyword inheritance and then that procs lasting frost, etc...

However, there's a FAQ here: http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396

Answer 15 states in part: "You have to be using the powers of the weapon for those keywords to be added; simply using the magic item does not necessarily mean every keyword attached to a power of that item will be added."

So, weapon-using characters get Lasting Frost cheese; spellcasters don't.

 

[Aservan]

Tactics are good. I have been doing the divine challenge hellish rebuke trick since day one. There are a few problems with it as a combo though it can be a very good one. It takes a minor action to challenge an enemy. That is an action you are not using to curse. You have to keep attacking in order to maintain the challenge which uses up your standard action. You have to move in order to keep your shadow walk up and to keep away from the enemies (taking two+ OAs for using a single ranged attack is a BAD idea). The other issue with it is that it works once per encounter and usually takes two + rounds to set up (at least if you want to curse the enemy first) so it doesn't last long and is a lot of effort for anything other then elites and solos. Still it is worth it against them. Don't keep it up long versus a solo though (too much damage).

Those of you trying to say that the warlock's numbers can keep up with rogue's or ranger's usually neglect adding in the improved quarry or backstabber feats (feats that those players pretty much always choose).

Armor of Agathys is also a daily power. A daily. It is one of the best dailies in the warlock arsenal granted. But at best you will use it once per 4 fights or so. Compare that to what a rogue does with combat advantage and a daily. Things aren't so in the 'locks favor now. The rogue can blind a bunch of people until the end of his next turn (incidentally this works great against eyebite as bursts and blasts ignore invisibility), or better yet get slow and combat advantage until the target saves. The warlock has to give up on a lot to use the Armor of Agathys tactic as well. Despite his good defenses he is not a defender. The warlock does not have the HP or the Defences to stand toe to toe in Melee long (he has to give up his shadow walk to be in melee).

Remember rogues have an at-will that targets Reflex only they get to add +4 to the attack (dagger + rogueiness) the warlock gets no such advantage.

If the warlock could rain down curses all over the place then the tactics many of you are suggesting might work. As it is you can only get a few temp HP from your curses. Or a teleport here or there. Or a bonus per enemy. Temp hit points from the same source don't stack for one thing, and you can only curse the closest target. There won't always be a good place to teleport to in 5 squares, and despite bonuses you can still miss. Until you can get a rod of corruption, or two fold curse the fact is that you can only curse one opponent a round for the most part.

The warlock's powers do not synergize well. Shadow walk wants you to move around, but a 10 square range limits how far you can go. Shadow walk wants you to move but many spells (the above armor of agathys) want you to get real close where shifting 1 square is the norm. All ranged attacks don't mesh well with prime shot. An ability that wants you to be closer then the melee people to work. Yes there are situations where all of this is useful. The problem is that those situations just aren't that common in my experience.

A ranger or rogue attacking with their favorite weapons are common situations. A one on one situation versus a single enemy who doesn't individually outclass you isn't.

Again the point of 4th edition was to bring the joy of the well oiled team back/forward. For the most part the designers accomplished this. The exception is the design of the warlock. Think about it. You have to think about combos with the 'lock to figure out how he can help the party. The other classes just perform their role. The thinking is about how they can do it better not about how they can do it at all.

 

[Wepwawet]

This doesn’t “prove” anything—the whole situation is completely artificial and unlikely to happen in actual combat. What it does suggest, however, is that a Warlock is most effective—potentially more effective than any of the other strikers, and thus a “better” class—when the situation most closely resembles this imaginary one on one missile battle.

I believe Warlock is the Best class for a solo game, because of these reasons. Also he uses magic, which is nice

Infernal Warlocks shine when they take damage, using their temp hp and getting the damage bump from Hellish Rebuke. When that is happening they potentially do as much damage as a Rogue while remaining on their feet much longer.

Wow! This gives me an idea!
This is a great way to play a martyr-style character (too bad Ilmater is no longer). When you get hit you get stronger.
I know it's very emo, but this would be a nice concept

About the warlock, I totally agree with ilmoin. He shines when you have few strikers in your party or you don't have a wizard

 

[Runestar]

On hellish rebuke: The rules only say that a creature knows what conditions you have inflicted upon them, not what conditions you have inflicted upon their buddies. I find it entirely believable that while you might not be able to attract attacks from your target, you can almost certainly attract attacks from some other participant in the fight. I think that the 50% chance of the extra damage triggering is therefore probably a bit low.

Can you announce that you are stabbing yourself for the token 1 point of damage to trigger hellish rebuke and injure your foe?

Alternatively, it does give the wizard a little incentive to "accidentally" catch you in the AoE of his scorching burst power. Simply making the most out of a bad scenario...

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, if you're a tiefling or otherwise have fire resist, it would be a perfectly viable tactic to ask the wiz to scorching burst you.
Triggering rebuke for a couple of points of damage? Sure.

 

[theNater]

Those of you trying to say that the warlock's numbers can keep up with rogue's or ranger's usually neglect adding in the improved quarry or backstabber feats (feats that those players pretty much always choose).

Okay, let's run the numbers again. We will ignore magical gear and the Weapon Focus type feats, assuming that both characters will get identical bonuses from them. Working with characters before level 4, so I don't have to worry about attribute increases.

Warlock with 20 con:
A)Hellish Rebuke with both hits and curse does 3d6+10 damage. Average: 20.5

B)Hellish Rebuke with only one hit and curse does 2d6+5 damage. Average: 12

Rogue with 18 dex, 18 cha:
A)Sly Flourish with rapier, Sneak Attack, and Backstabber does 3d8+8 damage. Average: 21.5

B)Sly Flourish with rapier and Backstabber does 1d8+8 damage. Average: 12.5

At this point, the rogue is ahead by one point of damage per hit if the enemy is cooperative, half a point if the enemy is uncooperative. This is not a gamebreakingly horrific damage advantage, and it is not without cost to the rogue. The reason we hear that the rogue is leaving the warlock in the dust is that people keep comparing warlock B to rogue A.

The rogue has spent two feats to reach this slight advantage. The warlock can use those feats for things like Defensive Mobility, which couples with temporary hit points and last round's Shadow Walk to make walking around and/or firing in melee a reasonably safe proposition. Defensive Mobility, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, and Toughness are just a few of the feats that both rogues and warlocks will find tempting. The warlock can be collecting these while the rogue is struggling to get ahead.

The rogue has options, of course. If the feat cost is too much, the rapier can be replaced with a crossbow, making it more difficult to safely get combat advantage and eating up minor actions. Daggers and shortswords maintain ease of flank, but bring their lesser damage.

The rogue can even use another feat for Two-Weapon Fighting, bringing him ahead by 2 or 1.5 points per hit. This is better, but still not to the mighty levels of advantage we keep hearing about. And of course, it's another feat the warlock can spend on defenses or utility.

And then there's encounter and daily powers. A rogue can't go above a d8 on his [W], while a warlock often has a similar number of d8s or d10s. The fact that a rogue can use feats to boost the damage of Deep Cut(rogue 5) more than a warlock can boost Avernian Eruption(warlock 5) does not make the rogue a better damage dealer than the warlock.

 

[bardolph]

Answer 15 states in part: "You have to be using the powers of the weapon for those keywords to be added; simply using the magic item does not necessarily mean every keyword attached to a power of that item will be added."

So, weapon-using characters get Lasting Frost cheese; spellcasters don't.

It has got to be a matter of time before this gets overturned. Using Lasting Frost with martial powers is ridiculously broken, since it renders obsolete EVERY OTHER BUILD IN THE GAME.

 

[bardolph]

Okay, let's run the numbers again.

(snip)

At this point, the rogue is ahead by one point of damage per hit if the enemy is cooperative, half a point if the enemy is uncooperative. This is not a gamebreakingly horrific damage advantage, and it is not without cost to the rogue.

Also, Warlocks can get extra damage going through multiclassing (Paladin is a great choice for Eyebite cheese).

 

[theNater]

Also, Warlocks can get extra damage going through multiclassing (Paladin is a great choice for Eyebite cheese).

I admit, I haven't been watching the Eyebite cheese discussions with a great amount of care. Is there some damage boosting on the Divine Challenge?

As far as I'm aware, Divine Challenge damage is slightly lower than average Hellish Rebuke secondary blast damage(prior to level 11). Of course, it makes up that difference in defensive bonuses and sheer awesome, but I don't really know how to count those things in the damage calculations.