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Help me grock the warlock

bardolph

First Post
Look I am not trying to offend anyone. I said "... by the numbers Warlock is the worst striker..."

I don't see how that is anything but an objective opinion.
However, "by the numbers" charts have to make lots of assumptions in order to function, and Warlocks are the most "combo-ey" striker of the bunch, so it's really hard for spreadsheets to do justice to the Warlock.

To say then that "Eldritch Blast has an equal chance to hit with a longbow" is also true given my understanding of things. I am not making things up when I say that weapon focus applies to a longbow but not to eldritch blast. You can use far shot on the bow as well but not with EB.
Feat choices are absolutely a weakness of the Warlock. However, remember that feats are not unlimited: while an Archer might take weapon focus to maximize damage output with a longbow, the Warlock can for the same price take Soldier of the Faith, and use Eyebite/Divine Challenge cheese.

Also remember that even strikers need defense: an optimized but dead striker is not optimized at all. No DPR spreadsheet is going to be able to tell you this.

Tell me which numbers you want to use. I would love to hear that I am wrong (Really!! I want Warlocks to rock).
Take a look at the Armor of Agathys/Hellish Rebuke combo, above.
 

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theNater

First Post
Tell me which numbers you want to use.
I want to see more use of the double blast of Hellish Rebuke or Dire Radiance. A warlock getting both bursts out of either of those is producing 3d6 + 2con damage. A rogue using sly flourish with a dagger is getting 1d4 + 2d6 + dex + cha, which is less. A rogue using sly flourish with a rapier or crossbow is getting 1d8 + 2d6 + dex + cha, which is still less if the warlock has a 20 con. But most of the calculations assume that the rogue has combat advantage every round and the warlock gets his second burst only occasionally, and then people act surprised when the rogue comes out ahead.
 

ilmoin

First Post
If you are so sure that the Warlock* is inferior to both the Ranger and the Rogue try this experiment:

Make a Infernal or Fey Warlock and set up a battle with a Rogue or Ranger in a 100’ by 100’ room. Maybe give it some pillars so everyone can use cover and play hide and seek. Run the fight and you’ll find that most of the time the Warlock rips the Rogue or Ranger to pieces.

Why?

Warlocks are best when the enemy has to attack them. Then both the Fey and Infernal at will powers are most effective and potentially do the most damage.

Compare Ranger with Twin Strike 2d10+1d8, Rogue with Rapier and Backstabber 3d8+8, and Infernal Warlock with Hellish Rebuke 3d6+10. See the post above. (Assuming 20 in main stat.)

The Infernal Warlock does about equivalent damage to the Ranger and the Rogue _even though_ s/he is attacking their best defense (Ref) and they are attacking the worst (AC), and tends to win out because s/he plain has more hitpoints: with Con as the primary stat, Infernal Warlocks tend to be about as tough in terms of hp and surges as a Fighter or Paladin.

The Fey Warlock wins consistently because Eyebite wastes the opponent’s attacks. Even though you do less damage, when you hit they probably lose their next turn. One on one, invisibility is almost as good as stun.

This doesn’t “prove” anything—the whole situation is completely artificial and unlikely to happen in actual combat. What it does suggest, however, is that a Warlock is most effective—potentially more effective than any of the other strikers, and thus a “better” class—when the situation most closely resembles this imaginary one on one missile battle.

Infernal Warlocks shine when they take damage, using their temp hp and getting the damage bump from Hellish Rebuke. When that is happening they potentially do as much damage as a Rogue while remaining on their feet much longer.

The Fey Warlock, by contrast, does less damage, but is a waste of time—for your opponents. One opponent will rarely be able to take out a Fey Warlock because of Eyebite and Misty Step teleports. Two become dangerous, but will still take sometime to beat the Warlock down—and tying up two opponents for the battle is more than worth it.

So, what does this tell us about how (and when) to play Infernal and Fey Warlocks?

First: Always try to set up a mini-fight in which you square off, one on one with a monster on the other side. Of course, this doesn’t work when the GM plain ignores you, so you should go for the soft targets, such Controllers, Missile troops and Lurkers. However, it doesn’t matter who it is, so long as you attract someone’s attention. Often if you attack the Leader you’ll suck in someone else and then you are off to the races.

Second: the Warlock is best when it is the only missile striker, perhaps the only striker, in a party. Even more so in a smaller party and when you don’t have a Wizard. Then the Warlock becomes a target of choice because s/he does more damage than the other characters and seems squishier. In these cases, moreover, except when fighting solos, there is usually someone to attack the Warlock, at which point their special abilites come into play.

(Note the corollary: the more strikers you have, the fewer Warlocks you want. Bow Rangers are the opposite of the Warlock: they are weakest when they attract fire, best when they are left alone. Thus, the imaginary “ideal” is the party of 5 Bow Rangers at extreme range, consistently running away and showering the opponents with arrows. The enemies’ best bet is to concentrate fire on one of them, leaving the rest to operate in ideal conditions.)

*Offer not valid for Star Warlocks. Try the tactics up thread instead.
 

the_redbeard

Explorer
I just noticed the other thread about stealth, so what I've said in my previous post is all null and void. Apparently Concealment + Stealth doesn't work, per stealth description in compendium.

I've emailed DDI staff for clarification - will update when I get answer.

Baring a new announcement, the Compendium does NOT yet over rule the PHB.

When it first came out, myself and others found a few discrepancies between the PHB and the Compendium. I emailed the ones to Ken Troop (think that's the right guy for DDI) and got an email back that yes these were errors and thanks for reporting them.

Having seen all the differences between the PHB and the Compendium, I have to guess that the data they pulled for the Compendium was from an older version of the PHB.

I will say this: the stealth rule currently in the Compendium is a lot clearer.
But it is also more limited to the point of being superfluous (why bother stealthing if I'm already in total cover?) and quite back to the old 3.5 iteration of stealth and contrary to what developers have said they've intended.

The DDI news article for the Compendium calls it a 'first glimpse.' Have there been any other announcements? Since that time, communication from DDI staff was that they knew there were errors that they needed to fix. Since this is so contrary to the PHB, and no faq or errata agrees with it, I have to count this as another error and not a new rule.

One more confirmation that it is not official: this entry is not used by CS in their responses to our questions. They may or may not be consistent on their interpretations but they do go by the official sources. If the Compendium was official, it would be an invaluable tool to CS in their job.


If anyone has word otherwise, please speak up.
 

loisel

First Post
The spreadsheet I looked at is Splart's.

OK, I see what happened. I should note that Splart's spreadsheet is new and there are some errors in it, some of which are documented in the thread. I'm sure it will improve over time.

And none of this, nor any spreadsheet misreading I may have done, changes the fact that your own chart for at-will damage by level 11 characters has the Hellish Rebuke warlock well ahead of the fighters and wizards when targeting ACs lower than 30.

Yes, the Hellish Rebuke lock on that chart is doing pretty well. The reason is that he gets 2x Cold Vulnerability per round. That's because he's wielding a wand that gives the [cold] keyword to Hellish Rebuke. Combined with Lasting Frost, this means the opponent has Cold Vulnerability 5. Furthermore, Hellish Rebuke can result in two attacks, one base attack plus the rebuke.

This comes from an interpretation of the rules for keyword inheritance, which has apparently now been contradicted by customer service? I am not sure. Since there is uncertainty, I have not changed the graph.

So with that in mind, you can expect the "best case scenario" to be the Hellish Rebuke character from that chart. If the [cold] keyword inheritance is incorrect, this thing goes down the toilet.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
This comes from an interpretation of the rules for keyword inheritance, which has apparently now been contradicted by customer service? I am not sure. Since there is uncertainty, I have not changed the graph.

See the official errata. Keyword Inheritance doesn't (and actually never did) work the way people thought it did.
 

Krensus

First Post
The Tiefling Warlock in my party is actually pretty good. She's Star Pact for Imp. Fate of the Void and has a Rod of Corruption, leading to massive plusses to hit on her next turn when the wizard kills a ton of minions. Hellfire Blood gives +1 to hit and damage with all Fear and Fire powers, which is pretty much every spell in her repertoire.

Mobs in general have lower Reflex and Will than AC, and that is why the lower plus to hit compared to a ranger or rogue evens out. There are some rounds where she doesn't need to roll the die to hit except to see if she crits because she has +17 vs. Reflex. That is where a warlock makes up for the slightly less damage compared to the martial classes; they are more likely to hit with their attacks.
 



Victim

First Post
OK, I see what happened. I should note that Splart's spreadsheet is new and there are some errors in it, some of which are documented in the thread. I'm sure it will improve over time.



Yes, the Hellish Rebuke lock on that chart is doing pretty well. The reason is that he gets 2x Cold Vulnerability per round. That's because he's wielding a wand that gives the [cold] keyword to Hellish Rebuke. Combined with Lasting Frost, this means the opponent has Cold Vulnerability 5. Furthermore, Hellish Rebuke can result in two attacks, one base attack plus the rebuke.

This comes from an interpretation of the rules for keyword inheritance, which has apparently now been contradicted by customer service? I am not sure. Since there is uncertainty, I have not changed the graph.

So with that in mind, you can expect the "best case scenario" to be the Hellish Rebuke character from that chart. If the [cold] keyword inheritance is incorrect, this thing goes down the toilet.

I thought everything on that spreadsheet was (mis)using keyword inheritance to get the bonus, so it's not like the warlock would be especially hindered.
 

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