Reaving Rod and...

[Nifft]

Ok, well I wasn't thinking this high of level, but nevertheless. I see what you mean, although the group is making itself revolve a bit around the rogue with all the frost weapons. Which brings up how much I don't like those feats btw.

Nah, the Ranger would be having a ball even if there were no Rogue. It's a great group-level optimization. Not every group can do it -- Tieflings would really prefer to be dealing Fire damage, for example, and once you get to Holy Avenger levels, the Paladin may want to use one of those instead -- but it can be good for some groups.

In any case, my point is that the Warlock can pop minions with ease with this tactic, and I guess you've got a point in that sometimes he needs to be able to, to make up for a rogue that can have at people viciously. My main argument stands though, that I think it is cheesy and doesn't feel right. That has nothing to do with the power or lack thereof of the warlock. Certainly the warlock might not be as good a choice for striker as the rogue is but I don't know if insta-popin' minions is a good "fix". I know from what little I've run that minions, although they only have 1 hp, when you still have to hit them I was able to make them last and do damage.

One minion may be popped per round at Heroic tier; two per round at Paragon and higher.

Compared to the number that can be killed automatically every round by a Wizard's Flaming Sphere, a Warlock's Armor of Agathys, or a Fighter's Rain of Steel stance... I'm not seeing what the big deal is.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FadedC]

Just looking at the Rogue in isolation:

Rogue, on target he hit last round:
+3d6 damage at 11th level due to Combat Advantage
+5 damage due to vulnerability
+2 to attack due to Combat Advantage; so +10% to total expected damage output
---> Expected extra damage: +15.5

Warlock, after spending a round setting up:
Curse spread 5 squares; +2d6 damage to anyone
---> Expected extra damage: +7

... however, that ignores the team play aspects of each item / combo. See, the smart Rogue isn't attacking just some random guy. He's attacking the guy who already got hit last round by the Ranger (who uses a Frost longbow), or the Wizard (who cast Icy Rays or whatever last round), or the Warlord with his Frost Longsword.

The Rogue's trick scales across the whole party, and the extra +5 damage and free combat advantage boost the output of the whole party by a lot.

Well we seem to be going off track a bit here, as the the power of a particular combo is completely irrelevent to weither someone can use 2 implements at once. However I feel I should point out though that warlocks are quite capable of taking cold powers and setting up the lasting frost/wintertouched combo as well, and they don't need a special weapon to do it.

 

[Nifft]

Well we seem to be going off track a bit here

He's got a right to ask questions just like you do.

-- N

 

[FadedC]

He's got a right to ask questions just like you do.

-- N

Agreed, and I also have the right to observe when things are going a bit off track. However I meant that as more of an observation then a criticism. I'm as guilty as anyone of going off track sometimes. My point was just that the warlock can do your combo just as easily as the rogue, while using his own combo as well. But that also that who can do what with a completely unrelated power has no effect on the question of if you can benefit from 2 implement properties at once.

 

[Tellerve]

Nah, the Ranger would be having a ball even if there were no Rogue. It's a great group-level optimization. Not every group can do it -- Tieflings would really prefer to be dealing Fire damage, for example, and once you get to Holy Avenger levels, the Paladin may want to use one of those instead -- but it can be good for some groups.

One minion may be popped per round at Heroic tier; two per round at Paragon and higher.

Compared to the number that can be killed automatically every round by a Wizard's Flaming Sphere, a Warlock's Armor of Agathys, or a Fighter's Rain of Steel stance... I'm not seeing what the big deal is.

Cheers, -- N

I guess my "big deal" about this is that it is something that can be done from 55 squares away if need be. All those other powers have to be right next to the character or object to get damaged. If the warlock uses Armor of Agathys that's great, but they are right next to creatures, wherein lies my issue. It would have been likely, but not absolute, that those minons would have gotten in an attack. But when you can pop them with no range and no attack roll it gets into the sticky area where I think it is odd. I agree, probably not ground breaking or anything. If the insta-pop is ok or good or needed because it gets the warlock on a slightly more even playing field with the warlock then something is likely wrong with either the rogue or the warlock in terms of balance.

To get it back onto the original subject, it would certainly be ground breaking if you could wield two rods and insta-pop a whole group of minions in the first round.

Tellerve

 

[Dark_beebles]

Well...at least my question got anwsered...

Kind of funny its unbalance to drop minions in 1 round...i should make that my sig lol....

 

[Minigiant]

Well considering that a minion is 1/4 of a standard monster and a warlock will typically have a 50-75% accuracy vs minions due to their low Reflex... rangeless autokilling 1 or 2 a turn with a minor action, a held item, AND close proximity is not that overpowered.

It's only a little crazy if you are allowed to juggle multiple harvest wands in the other hand.

 

[Starshadow]

Once upon a time there was a great, powerful and mightily corrupted Warlock who did great and magnificient deeds. This story however doesn't tell about him. This tells about his little son who has barely reached puberty (and level 1). The father and the son are camping in the Astral Sea and while father is out in the Astral Woods the son hears mighty commodition from the opposite direction his father went.

The boy is of a curious type so he cannot resist the temptation, even though his father has told him to stay in the camp. The boy sneaks around in his shadowy concealment and soons sees two mighty armies approaching clearly intending to do battle. The boy hides behind some rocks and watches. From the left arrives legions of legion devils and from the right approaches mighty heavenly army of valorious angels of valor.

The armies approach and the boy is scared. He estimates that the armies will clash out just around him and it is just a matter of time when one of the millions of combatants sees him and slays him. He cringes in fear and digs his pouches and backpack. He finds the two rods his father gave for him to practice with. He has killed bunnies and even bunny families with them, but these are armies of mighty angels and demons, what good would they do against them? Even so he holds them tight, intending to at least hurt the thing that will kill him.

The battle begins just around him and very soon, almost before the first blood, an angel peers into his hiding place and yells: "Spawn of S***n! Perish by my sword!" The boy grimaces, stands up, points one rod at the angel and holds the other tight in his hands! To his mighty surprise the angel clutches his heart and falls down - dead, and the angel and the devil behind it a moment later, and where-ever the boy gazes demons and angels die as one as his curse spreads among them like wildfire. In just a moment the Astral Battlefield is filled with millions of corpses of both angels and devils, all slain by the thirteen year old little boy, his mighty curse and two practice rods of Reaving and Corruption. So ended the battle between good and evil, the victor being the small curious boy who just happened to be there.

 

[PHGraves]

This still seems to boil down into "can you use two implements at the same time?" to me.
So far, my ruling at the table has been "No."
Wow. Look at that. This specific issue - solved.

 

[Starshadow]

This still seems to boil down into "can you use two implements at the same time?" to me.
So far, my ruling at the table has been "No."
Wow. Look at that. This specific issue - solved.

I made the same ruling even though for a moment I considered allowing Reaving to do it's damage and spread the curse with corruption, but those new curses would not cause damage. Finally I decided "No" - It might make my life as the DM easier in the future.