3.5 breakdown at high levels?

[Fenes]

I think if Wulf says "adjust in your head, at the table", he means something like add +2 to attack, ~20 hit points and +1 to saves.
Not actually working out the precise details according to the system.

And I think that's the entire point against the 3E system - sure, I can just ignore the rules, but ignoring is not using, or even benefiting from the rules.

Well, I hate using the evil number 4 here, but that's exactly what 4E makes the rule. Which I personally find way more comfortable. Especially because I know that I didn't miss anything important (like that an NPC would have better gear now, more spells or feats for the monster, ability score increase... Sure, each individual might seem inconsequential, but these errors stack...)

So, somehow the fact that 4E codifies a rule that many of us have already been using with 3E is a point against 3E?

Strangely, from the way you are afraid of missing anything "important" - as if a +1 or +2 here or there would matter that much - you seem more rooted in the "everything must be like the rules say", and only able to start fudging and adhocing if the rules tell you it's ok.

Psst, it's ok to fudge and guess and adhoc in 3E too. The books evne say so, even though in smaller letters than in 4E.

 

[Fenes]

Again, and I'm repeating myself here, the abiity to fudge and ignore a ruleset IS NOT A STRENGTH OF A RULESET, ITS A WEAKNESS.

It's called flexibility. And it's a good thing. So good, WotC introduced it in 4E.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You actually have a PHB open to the spell section and choose spells as needed during play?

And you can do that fast enough that it doesn't take hours to run that combat?

I have a pretty good idea what a dragon is going to want in combat, for the first 3-4 levels of spells, yes.

1st: Shield, True Strike
2nd: Resist Elements, Mirror Image, Invisibility
3rd: Haste, Blink, Displacement, Dispel Magic
4th: Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, Dimension Door, Fire Shield

I certainly can't. I don't have that kind of memory for spells, mostly because I don't play spell casters.

Has 4e improved your recall of powers?

Again, and I'm repeating myself here, the abiity to fudge and ignore a ruleset IS NOT A STRENGTH OF A RULESET, ITS A WEAKNESS.

The ability to fudge a ruleset and keep your game running smoothly is absolutely a strength of a ruleset.

And I'll go you one farther and say that 4e is stronger on this point than 3e. 4e is more smoothly fudgeable. That is a design strength of 4e; in fact it is an explicit design goal of 4e, mentioned several times by the developers.

But again... You can fudge in 3e. It may be that there's a particular combination of "Smarter than the average bear" and "Not obsessive compulsive" that is required of the 3e DM.

 

[Hussar]

I agree with you 100% Fenes.

Why do you think they added it to the ruleset? If it was so completely obvious, why was there a need to add it in?

3e rules are not flexible. There is nothing in the rules that says, "Hey, it's okay if you're off by a point or two, don't sweat it." That is completely and totally absent from any 3.5 rulebook. The 3.x rules are very, very specific. They go down a point by point list on how to add levels, add hit dice, or add a template.

But, let's look at specifics shall we? Look at the Vampire Template from the D20 SRD. Where in there does it say anything about fudging or ad hoc'ing? Which elements are ok to leave off and ignore? Which one absolutely have to be covered?

Sure, Rule Zero is there. I know that. But, at the end of the day, the RULES are certainly not showing a whole lot of flexibility here. You go down the checklist, you make the adjustments and get your new monster.

I agree with you Fenes. I fudged it all the time too. Maybe not to the degree that I can wing a CR 17 dragon but, I certainly didn't sweat all the small points.

But that doesn't matter. We're not discussing Hussar's D&D, or Fenes D&D. We're discussing 3.x D&D. 3.x D&D says that when you advance a creature, you follow X, Y and Z steps. It certainly does not say, "Hey, here's fifteen steps to advancing this creature, feel free to ignore steps 7, 9 and 11, they won't come up in play that often."

 

[Hussar]

The ability to fudge a ruleset and keep your game running smoothly is absolutely a strength of a ruleset.

The ability to fudge a rule set is a strength of a DM. Not the ruleset. That the DM can keep the game running smoothly DESPITE the rules of the game, is a strength of the DM. I don't see how it can possibly be seen as a plus for the ruleset.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Why do you think they added it to the ruleset? If it was so completely obvious, why was there a need to add it in?

Because some people are stupid and anal.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I agree with you 100% Fenes.

Why do you think they added it to the ruleset? If it was so completely obvious, why was there a need to add it in?

The ability to fudge a rule set is a strength of a DM. Not the ruleset. That the DM can keep the game running smoothly DESPITE the rules of the game, is a strength of the DM. I don't see how it can possibly be seen as a plus for the ruleset.

Can you pick one position?

 

[Rel]

Because some people are stupid and anal.

Ok, that's enough, Wulf. I think you're making a decent point here but it's getting completely lost in the confrontational snark. Tone it down or leave the thread.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Has 4e improved your recall of powers?

I am not sure if this answers the question (especially since I can't speak for Hussar), but: It wrote the mechanical effects of all powers of the monsters in the stat-block. And it has a guideline on how to adjust the powers if you gain levels (of course, the only thing that you need to change is damage values - the status effects don't need adjustment)

 

[taliesin15]

obryn writes:

And I'd like to say that I disagree completely. If I am statting mid-to-high-level NPCs or adjusting monsters and I don't have access to (Hero/Monster)Forge, I hate it. Between adjusting hit dice and figuring out how the creature's BAB/Saves are affected; changing sizes and ability scores, and the numerous cascading effects therefrom; possibly adding feats; and changing all the ability save DCs... Yeah, I'm no dummy

My sincere apologies if you took what I said that way--hard to know what others are up to and their backgrounds. I think the situation is that I as a DM would never use something like "(Hero/Monster)Forge" or really anything else just about outside of the three core rulebooks. As a matter of fact, I don't use the Prestige Classes at all (just the drawing of the Loremaster alone, with geek glasses and birkenstocks alone puts me off), I don't even use Paladins or Monks (the latter only as a handful of special NPCs, as in less than ten in the entire world), and I frown on players even wanting to use Half-Orcs. Anything other than human, elf, hobbit, dwarf, gnome or half-elf is not really allowed. Also, I have serious restrictions on weapons--there are no crossbows of any sort, and there are no Oriental weapons. Oh yeah, and Sorcerors are extremely rare. And Adepts as NPCs likewise, very rare.

While the point of all this is creating a milieu with a specific kind of flavor, it has the added advantage of simplifying things as a DM.

Where I have made things very simple on the one hand, certain things are much more complicated. Languages are much more complicated. The Common tongue has at least 20 sub dialects. Same is true for demi human languages (Elvish has Quenyan and Sindarin, for example). Undercommon doesn't exist as a language. Except for the use of Demi-human deities (Garl Glittergold, Yondalla, etc), I have entirely 86'ed the D&D Pantheon in favor of mainly Norse/Anglo-Saxon pantheons, with a bit of Celtic. The system is pantheistic, which is a very different system of having each cleric only worshipping/following one god. There are no temples or churches, per se, though there are holy sites, and a few really large Beer Halls meant to be reproductions or replicas of Odin's feast hall.

Anyhow, I digress. For me, it is very easy to deal with, as I have ironclad boundaries as far as what I allow and don't. The kinds of players that would whine about my not using whatever new class/feat variant has just been published naturally weren't compatible with the kind of game I was running, and the kind of players that value the same kinds of things that interest me found the game more rewarding.