Farewell to thee D&D

[Celtavian]

You see D&D as a trollop. I see your relationship like this: you find a beautiful woman who was willing to be with you. She had a little bit of work done, looked even better, and you got scared and left her without really thinking about the work she had done. You then proceeded to trash talk her because you didn't understand her.

I stopped reading your post at the point that I realized that you hadn't actually understood the rules. There are a few comments that are recognized as valid annoyances to a lot of people, but some of your stuff (minions and dragons) don't actually make sense.

Go ahead and leave her. She needs someone who will actually love her, and you've shown that it isn't you.

I very much understood the rules. Which I why I posted what I posted.

That is how the rules work. I fail to see how you can make 1 hit point minions seem any different than they are. They are one hit point whether a lvl 1 kobold or a lvl 20 demon minion. They die if struck by a Scorching Blast or if struck by a twig. That is how it works unless you can point to something else.

As I stated, I understand the concept behind the way they are made, but I do not like how the concept is executed. Which is entirely different from not understanding the rules.

And I have read every single dragon breath weapon. It seems to me it is you who are not doing the math in your head as far as whether a dragon breath weapon could kill outright a low level non-minion lvl 3 Hobgoblin soldier or a lvl 6 Skirmisher shadow hound with an average roll of damage.

Or do you think I missed the way I'm supposed to design an encounter using a ton of minions to simulate a large army of a particular type of creature? Do you think I'm not understanding that part of the rules.

I very much understand it. I was told by folks on this board to give 4E a try, so I would see the rules in play. I have played and run the game and very much do understand the rules.

As I stated in the post, this is not an argument. This is my subjective opinion regarding 4E after playing it. It has nothing to do with not understanding the concept behind 4E rules, it has everything with not liking how the 4E rules model the concept.

That is a very different animal. I don't insult you for liking 4E, I would prefer not to be insulted or bothered for not liking it as appears some people are doing.

I am entitled to my opinion. I have played the game, so this is not coming from someone unfamiliar with it. I have test run the breath weapon of a dragon against the creatures I listed.

I did not say dragon could not destroy an army fo hobgoblin soldiers. I said he could not destroy them with his breath weapon. And that is truth. A dragon's breath weapon is not as freely used nor as large as it was in previous editions. No idea why you are disputing this. If I had said that dragons couldn't kill an army of hobgoblin soldiers or a pack of wolf hounds, then your critcism of my rule statement would be valid. But since that isn't the case, I don't get what you're talking about. I can prove what I wrote. If you don't mind it conceptually, then that is your opinion. I like dragon breath weapons to be something that can decimate armies with continuous overhead passes that don't require recharge rerolls or the creature becoming bloodied. That's how I like it.

 

[Griego]

Wait, what..?? There are so many things wrong with this statement that I'm stunned.

Exactly. By posting on a forum you are, by definition, inviting discussion and yes, even argument. If you don't want that, start a blog.

Now, wrto the OP, back when my 1e group stopped playing, I got a chance to play with another group, who switched to 2e. I did not like a lot of things about 2e, but I went ahead and played anyway, and eventually got over any misgivings I had. Well, that kind of freed me, in a sense, and since then, even large changes in crunch don't bother me that much.

 

[Halivar]

A dragon's breath weapon is not as freely used nor as large as it was in previous editions. No idea why you are disputing this.

"Not as freely used" I will dispute with you.

3rd Editon: Every 1d4 rounds (effectively, there is a 1/3 chance each round you can use dragon breath).
4th Edition: A 5-6 roll recharges (effectively, there is a 1/3 chance each round you can use dragon breath).

 

[Celtavian]

There was a moratorium against edition war threads for a while. Every time I see a thread like this, it seems like it'd be a good idea to try to get a moratorium on dramatic, preachy "I'm a lifelong player and 4E killed D&D for me and all real D&D players, so I'm leaving forever" threads.

I mean, for crying out loud... If you don't like the game, don't play it. 4E isn't the only game in town, and companies are moving to meet the demands of players who prefer older editions.

I don't intend to play it. I didn't create this as an edition wars thread which is why I prefaced my comment with this is a subjective opinion. I wanted to commiserate with a few other folks who might feel as I do.

After you played a game as long as I have, it feels kind of strange to have that game become something you don't want to play. I'm sure some people felt that way when 3E came out as well.

I generally looked forward to new books. Now I have no books to look forward too. And feel alienated from the game I enjoyed for so many years. This is one of the places I know of with D&D players in large numbers. So I came here to commiserate.

Did I force you to read this thread? Or reply to it?

I prefaced my entire statement with you "if you like 4E, then you won't understand my complaints". I don't get how much clearer I can be as far as saying "this is my opinion. I'm not making a statement I believe will apply to people that like 4E".

 

[Storminator]

"Not as freely used" I will dispute with you.

3rd Editon: Every 1d4 rounds (effectively, there is a 1/3 chance each round you can use dragon breath).
4th Edition: A 5-6 roll recharges (effectively, there is a 1/3 chance each round you can use dragon breath).

1e: 3 times per day.

PS

 

[Byronic]

You see D&D as a trollop. I see your relationship like this: you find a beautiful woman who was willing to be with you. She had a little bit of work done, looked even better, and you got scared and left her without really thinking about the work she had done. You then proceeded to trash talk her because you didn't understand her.

I stopped reading your post at the point that I realized that you hadn't actually understood the rules. There are a few comments that are recognized as valid annoyances to a lot of people, but some of your stuff (minions and dragons) don't actually make sense.

Go ahead and leave her. She needs someone who will actually love her, and you've shown that it isn't you.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. The OP made some comments, some of them I agree with, some of them I don't. Some of them were invalid (in the sense that they were based on a misunderstanding) But the OP was quite valid in disliking 4th edition.

You see, 4e is NOT the same beautiful woman 3e was. 4e is an entirely different woman. Different hair colour, different race, different interests. Some people liked the first one better, some of them liked the latter better. Some want to keep both. But they are different people.

The play style is different, I can think of a lot of fun I've had using spells and such outside of combat and are mechanically impossible with 4e.

To give an easy example, rituals. Some people LIKED being able to summon up Tensor's Disk or some other little helpful thing with the flick of a wrist. Standing in the middle of town, summoning a horse with a single magical word and hopping on it is FUN, and it gave players a nice sense of fun and most importantly MAGIC. Spending 10 min drawing a magical circle and chanting to summon up a horse is NOT as much fun, and really it gets annoying to have townspeople coming up to you and asking wth you're doing (and thats WITHOUT the pitchforks). Coughing up 70 gold worth of material also takes a bit of fun out of it, makes it more of a transaction then an act of magic.

Also some people liked Fighters because they were one of the simplest classes. It was such a nice class to introduce people to, grap a weapon, smack people. the rest is all roleplaying. Now they're just as complex as other classes.

What I'm trying to say is that they are different and I could mention a dozen other ways why. But that should be clear by now, and some people just prefer one above the other.

That's the whole of it.

 

[Celtavian]

"Not as freely used" I will dispute with you.

3rd Editon: Every 1d4 rounds (effectively, there is a 1/3 chance each round you can use dragon breath).
4th Edition: A 5-6 roll recharges (effectively, there is a 1/3 chance each round you can use dragon breath).

*shrug* It roughly equates to the same if I don't get a bad series of rolls. So be it.

Like I said, I'm not looking for argument. I'm looking for some people who might feel as I do.

 

[D'karr]

I very much understood the rules. Which I why I posted what I posted.

That is how the rules work. [snip]

I think you missed the point in which the rules are made for Creature or NPC against PC combat. If you want the rules to be used for Creature against Creature or NPC, then it doesn't matter one bit what the rules say.

If you need that dragon to take a mile long breath against that minion army of Hobgoblins and do 500 HP of damage, then do it. Because in the end it has absolutely no relevance to the players. But if you want the Dragon to breath on the PC's then the breath will be X squares wide and do NdX + Y damage.

Once again because combat rules are designed for PC vs. Creature combat and not for Creature vs. Creature simulation.

 

[Vayden]

*shrug* It roughly equates to the same if I don't get a bad series of rolls. So be it.

Like I said, I'm not looking for argument. I'm looking for some people who might feel as I do.

I get where you're coming from Celt, and I'm sorry to lose you. None of the things you posted about bother me in the slightest, but I feel bad to lose you. Best of luck finding a non-4e game that can keep you having fun.

 

[Morrus]

I will play older editions. It was more a matter of no more new books to buy and no more looking forward to new materials. That was a part of D&D to me.

DO you have all the 3.5 books? There were an awful lot of them. Plus there's hundreds more from third party publishers. I reckon there's enough out there to keep you buying for years to come!