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D&D 4E Any tips for speeding up the game? 4e is slowing me down!
- Thread starter Emirikol
- Start date
Nytmare
David Jose
I spent a couple months playing around with different ways of dealing with marks and conditions. In the end we landed on Alea Tools (the magnetic disks) for the various marks, red glass beads for bloodied, and I track all of the conditions on an initiative combat tool I made.
To combat the reversed pole madness, I just bought a couple sheets of galvanized steel for like 10 bucks to throw down under the game mat.
To combat the reversed pole madness, I just bought a couple sheets of galvanized steel for like 10 bucks to throw down under the game mat.
James McMurray
First Post
We picked up some 1" and 2" wooden disks at Hobby Lobby. 10 for a couple bucks on the small ones, and four for a buck on the large ones. Painting them gave my kids something to do.
RigaMortus2
First Post
In my (limited) experience, we've been about to get through 3 to 4 fights within a 4hr gaming period. In 3E, we could only get through 1 combat per night.
Imaro
Legend
From my (admittedly limited) experience, D&D 4e is not faster at low levels than 3.x. It's one of the things that turned my players off the game. They felt like it was joke when a kobold took 4 rounds or more to kill.
I will probably try the game again with them in the very distant future, with half hit points for everything but minions, honestly the only thing holding me to D&D 4e is the speed of prep and it's more widespread availability...but as Castles and Crusades expands more I'm starting to lean in that direction for my D&Desque fix.
I will probably try the game again with them in the very distant future, with half hit points for everything but minions, honestly the only thing holding me to D&D 4e is the speed of prep and it's more widespread availability...but as Castles and Crusades expands more I'm starting to lean in that direction for my D&Desque fix.
My group also find 4e slow, we use MapTools so there's no drawing the map, placing PCs, marking is all macros, as are all the skill, to hit, initiative rolls etc. I have a set of postcards with the players initiative on, the same for the monsters (monsters all done before hand), everything preped, even speeches macroed up (same as I did in 3.xe). Stat blocks appear on screen for me (the GM)... and yet it's still slow.
We played 3.5e with MapTools before we started on 4e and combat flashed by at times, we were playing Castle Whiterock and in a four hour session my players could get through almost a level of the Castle/Dungeon- six combat encounters minimum, from memory some of them protracted as one encounter runs into another (or goes and gets reinforcements). We've been playing 4e for 18 sessions so far, game time is now 5 hours/session (minimum), not four as previous and we get through between 3 and 6 combat encounters (average 4), after 10 sessions of the new campaign the players have faced 40 encounters. We do the same amount of roleplaying, bickering and shooting the breeze, the players haven't changed, nor have their roleplaying styles.
So far we've played through-
The start of KOTS (abandoned)
The Kobold Halls from the DMG
Raiders of Oakhurst
Treasures of Talon's Pass
Lots of encounters of my own devising.
And are part way through my conversion of Goodman Games Citadel of the Horned Lord DC35A.
The problems we have encountered are
Players decide ahead of time what they are going to do, then one of the players moves into a position which prevents the next player from doing what they want to do, who does something else and prevents the next player from doing what he... you get it.
Or else in the same situation one player states his intentions, blast here- don't go there, the other players do something less effective than they were going to and the player being accommodated misses, nobodies fault but a pain at times nevertheless.
Or else the players come up with a plan together before combat, which is unrealistic (although what's that got to do with it), and spend ten minutes before the combat kicks off stating their intentions. Which of course goes out of the window when the Paladin hits the deck and the Rogue is grabbed or some such.
The game is whole lot more tactical, more decisions are being made each turn (or so it seems), so in my group we had- Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard at first level.
3e
Paladin- I run in and smash the Kobold into next week, muttering something about my god. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold dies.
Ranger- I shoot the bugger at the back, the Kobold Wizard thing. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold Wizard nearly dies.
Rogue- I leap out of the shadows and backstab the Wizard Kobold. Roll Hide or Move Silently. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold Wizard dies.
Wizard- I fire my Magic Missile, it hits. Kobold dies.
Cleric- anybody hurt, nah, I run in and smash a Kobold. Resolve... Kobold dies.
End of round one- remaining Kobold plebs flee.
Not typical but you get my point.
4e
Paladin- I charge 5 squares, forget to challenge the Kobold, and do... wait for it, er... Valiant, no Radiant, no Valiant... no, I'll use my encounter power, if that hits I... and smash the Kobold into next week, muttering something about my god. Kobold Dragonshield shifts away as an Immediate Reaction. Or else, resolve attack and damage, figure out who gets the +2 to HP, or the +1 AC till the end of the turn- append character sheet (recalculating AC and for the player deciding how long they can think about keeping the bonus before the DM notices). Kobold doesn't die, not even bloodied.
Time drifts by, the DM goes to speak.
I use an action point and start up with my breath weapon (Dragonborn) against these four, DMs grin slips on a good day it only does four points of damage and it seems to hit one in three.
Ranger- I shoot the bugger at the back, the Kobold Wizard thing. I mark him as quarry first, no hang on I can't, I mark the one nearest as quarry... that one... no, one-two-three-four, yeah it is that one- the one I said first (and try to remember that next round). Resolve attack and damage. Miss with one roll. I use my Elven Accuracy, and... miss again, what with a 16- it's a Kobold, and a Wizard (sulks a little). The Kobold Wyrmpriest smirks and flicks the "V"s, not even blooded, waits for his next round when he can do a minor which will heal (a little) all Kobolds in ten squares (more counting).
Rogue- I leap out of the shadows and backstab the Wizard Kobold. Roll Hide or Move Silently. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold Wizard dies. Actually the Rogue works the same 3e to 4e for our lot, except he now dances a little jig as a minor (almost every round).
Wizard- I fire my Scorching Blast here, goes to roll and then calulates he's about to toast the Rogue, damn, no here, goes to roll... I'll use my Wand of Accuracy, so that's +3 to hit. No hang on I'll use my Acid Orb. Whatever spell used hits (mostly). Kobold's (of all varieties save minions) don't die.
It goes silent for a moment, GM goes to speak.
And I cast Light over there.
Cleric- anybody hurt, nah, I run in and smash a Kobold. Resolve... what do you mean I missed. As I minor I can give someone a +2 to saving throws... anybody... anybody... saving throws... a +2... anybody. I'm done.
The sweet spot for me and my players with 3e was lower level play- kill or be killed- either slaying all before them, defenders my backside- everyone save the wizard is a striker; or else running for their lives. Generally we abandoned characters when they got to 10th level or so, because it was so slow (yeah, I wasn't defending 3e), but 4e at lower levels is only just on the right side (at the moment) of the "too slow to play" cut off point for us. Although I think the new system will extend the sweet spot, as promised.
Perhaps my players are all indecisive, or else not very bright, but by day they do jobs that counter that assumption. Perhaps they're still fogged by their skill powers, although they've been playing the same characters for three months now (every weekend) and this is the first time everyone of them has purchased the PH. Perhaps when the monsters appear they don't quite now what to expect, and so hedge their bets (go cautious). Perhaps the players who played fighters (and other non-spellcasters) before are not used to having so many choices.
The rounds take longer, more decisions, more HP, more scribbling, more random bonuses bestowed (for limited periods), it's more mechanical- certainly compared to the style of play we had drifted into with 3e- with 20+ years D&D experience each.
That said I love 4e and my players like it too- they've all got more to do, and more to do takes more time. The indecision is there even after 18 sessions, particularly as they've had their security blanket taken off them, they knew more of the rules for 3e and so were more aware of their capabilities, I said they had the PHs, I didn't say they've read them. Incidentally one of the players bought the 3e PH when it came out and still hasn't got round to opening it, he's read all of the sections for his class, race etc. in the 4e PH- how's that for progress. After 18 sessions they still curse the new saving throw rule- which will probably be the first thing to get homebrewed. When we first started Minions were being subject to Dailies, the players didn't know a Minion has 1 HP, I wasn't going to tell them.
Oh and dailies, they kill me- in 20 sessions the Ranger has hit with his daily four times (we started counting), the Rogue three times, the Cleric twice and the Paladin... wait for it, never. That's right- never. Admittedly the player is very conservative, probably rolled it four or five times only, but she's never hit- we've no idea what it does. The Wizard we stopped counting for, she hits almost every time.
I have spreadsheets for each session comparing the monsters encountered, the average encounter levels compared to the PCs level, a roster of overall kills, an encounter by encounter break down of the monsters- planned ahead for the next 80+ encounters (the next two Chapters of the campaign), I have projected XP tables built in to this so I can calculate party levels- a madness affects me. I'm in hog-heaven, it's still just a little too slow.
More fun though.
We played 3.5e with MapTools before we started on 4e and combat flashed by at times, we were playing Castle Whiterock and in a four hour session my players could get through almost a level of the Castle/Dungeon- six combat encounters minimum, from memory some of them protracted as one encounter runs into another (or goes and gets reinforcements). We've been playing 4e for 18 sessions so far, game time is now 5 hours/session (minimum), not four as previous and we get through between 3 and 6 combat encounters (average 4), after 10 sessions of the new campaign the players have faced 40 encounters. We do the same amount of roleplaying, bickering and shooting the breeze, the players haven't changed, nor have their roleplaying styles.
So far we've played through-
The start of KOTS (abandoned)
The Kobold Halls from the DMG
Raiders of Oakhurst
Treasures of Talon's Pass
Lots of encounters of my own devising.
And are part way through my conversion of Goodman Games Citadel of the Horned Lord DC35A.
The problems we have encountered are
Players decide ahead of time what they are going to do, then one of the players moves into a position which prevents the next player from doing what they want to do, who does something else and prevents the next player from doing what he... you get it.
Or else in the same situation one player states his intentions, blast here- don't go there, the other players do something less effective than they were going to and the player being accommodated misses, nobodies fault but a pain at times nevertheless.
Or else the players come up with a plan together before combat, which is unrealistic (although what's that got to do with it), and spend ten minutes before the combat kicks off stating their intentions. Which of course goes out of the window when the Paladin hits the deck and the Rogue is grabbed or some such.
The game is whole lot more tactical, more decisions are being made each turn (or so it seems), so in my group we had- Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard at first level.
3e
Paladin- I run in and smash the Kobold into next week, muttering something about my god. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold dies.
Ranger- I shoot the bugger at the back, the Kobold Wizard thing. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold Wizard nearly dies.
Rogue- I leap out of the shadows and backstab the Wizard Kobold. Roll Hide or Move Silently. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold Wizard dies.
Wizard- I fire my Magic Missile, it hits. Kobold dies.
Cleric- anybody hurt, nah, I run in and smash a Kobold. Resolve... Kobold dies.
End of round one- remaining Kobold plebs flee.
Not typical but you get my point.
4e
Paladin- I charge 5 squares, forget to challenge the Kobold, and do... wait for it, er... Valiant, no Radiant, no Valiant... no, I'll use my encounter power, if that hits I... and smash the Kobold into next week, muttering something about my god. Kobold Dragonshield shifts away as an Immediate Reaction. Or else, resolve attack and damage, figure out who gets the +2 to HP, or the +1 AC till the end of the turn- append character sheet (recalculating AC and for the player deciding how long they can think about keeping the bonus before the DM notices). Kobold doesn't die, not even bloodied.
Time drifts by, the DM goes to speak.
I use an action point and start up with my breath weapon (Dragonborn) against these four, DMs grin slips on a good day it only does four points of damage and it seems to hit one in three.
Ranger- I shoot the bugger at the back, the Kobold Wizard thing. I mark him as quarry first, no hang on I can't, I mark the one nearest as quarry... that one... no, one-two-three-four, yeah it is that one- the one I said first (and try to remember that next round). Resolve attack and damage. Miss with one roll. I use my Elven Accuracy, and... miss again, what with a 16- it's a Kobold, and a Wizard (sulks a little). The Kobold Wyrmpriest smirks and flicks the "V"s, not even blooded, waits for his next round when he can do a minor which will heal (a little) all Kobolds in ten squares (more counting).
Rogue- I leap out of the shadows and backstab the Wizard Kobold. Roll Hide or Move Silently. Resolve attack and damage. Kobold Wizard dies. Actually the Rogue works the same 3e to 4e for our lot, except he now dances a little jig as a minor (almost every round).
Wizard- I fire my Scorching Blast here, goes to roll and then calulates he's about to toast the Rogue, damn, no here, goes to roll... I'll use my Wand of Accuracy, so that's +3 to hit. No hang on I'll use my Acid Orb. Whatever spell used hits (mostly). Kobold's (of all varieties save minions) don't die.
It goes silent for a moment, GM goes to speak.
And I cast Light over there.
Cleric- anybody hurt, nah, I run in and smash a Kobold. Resolve... what do you mean I missed. As I minor I can give someone a +2 to saving throws... anybody... anybody... saving throws... a +2... anybody. I'm done.
The sweet spot for me and my players with 3e was lower level play- kill or be killed- either slaying all before them, defenders my backside- everyone save the wizard is a striker; or else running for their lives. Generally we abandoned characters when they got to 10th level or so, because it was so slow (yeah, I wasn't defending 3e), but 4e at lower levels is only just on the right side (at the moment) of the "too slow to play" cut off point for us. Although I think the new system will extend the sweet spot, as promised.
Perhaps my players are all indecisive, or else not very bright, but by day they do jobs that counter that assumption. Perhaps they're still fogged by their skill powers, although they've been playing the same characters for three months now (every weekend) and this is the first time everyone of them has purchased the PH. Perhaps when the monsters appear they don't quite now what to expect, and so hedge their bets (go cautious). Perhaps the players who played fighters (and other non-spellcasters) before are not used to having so many choices.
The rounds take longer, more decisions, more HP, more scribbling, more random bonuses bestowed (for limited periods), it's more mechanical- certainly compared to the style of play we had drifted into with 3e- with 20+ years D&D experience each.
That said I love 4e and my players like it too- they've all got more to do, and more to do takes more time. The indecision is there even after 18 sessions, particularly as they've had their security blanket taken off them, they knew more of the rules for 3e and so were more aware of their capabilities, I said they had the PHs, I didn't say they've read them. Incidentally one of the players bought the 3e PH when it came out and still hasn't got round to opening it, he's read all of the sections for his class, race etc. in the 4e PH- how's that for progress. After 18 sessions they still curse the new saving throw rule- which will probably be the first thing to get homebrewed. When we first started Minions were being subject to Dailies, the players didn't know a Minion has 1 HP, I wasn't going to tell them.
Oh and dailies, they kill me- in 20 sessions the Ranger has hit with his daily four times (we started counting), the Rogue three times, the Cleric twice and the Paladin... wait for it, never. That's right- never. Admittedly the player is very conservative, probably rolled it four or five times only, but she's never hit- we've no idea what it does. The Wizard we stopped counting for, she hits almost every time.
I have spreadsheets for each session comparing the monsters encountered, the average encounter levels compared to the PCs level, a roster of overall kills, an encounter by encounter break down of the monsters- planned ahead for the next 80+ encounters (the next two Chapters of the campaign), I have projected XP tables built in to this so I can calculate party levels- a madness affects me. I'm in hog-heaven, it's still just a little too slow.
More fun though.
I've run my game since June 13th on friday nights with exception to having a 3 week break in there; and it wasn't until last session that I got my players to speed up to something reasonable.
One thing I did about a month ago, was make an initiative tracker. It's a vertical paper towel dowel that's placed in front of my DM screen. I then have huge binder clips that on the ends I used a binder label over the binder clip with the name of the player on it. I then made additional ones that were marked with letters. As I call initiative I put the top of initiative at the top of the dowel, and goes down in descending order. Since the binder clips are marked on both sides, everyone can readily see who's before them.
I basically had them go through the same encounter 3 times, with very small variations, pretty much back to back. Instead of trying to figure out the new enemies that had just been thrown at them, they got in the groove, and finally got used to their characters. The last encounter was the most fun encounter I have DMed because of that point. The players weren't lost in mechanics, and were actually using strategy against the enemy. Of course, I was using a fun monster against them that was fun to use as well.
Anyway, I'd suggest trying to run the multiple encounter over and over again until the player gets used to their mechanics to see if it's simply the fact they haven't learned their character yet, and built their confidence to the point where they can focus what they're going to do, as opposed to what they're capable of doing.
One thing I did about a month ago, was make an initiative tracker. It's a vertical paper towel dowel that's placed in front of my DM screen. I then have huge binder clips that on the ends I used a binder label over the binder clip with the name of the player on it. I then made additional ones that were marked with letters. As I call initiative I put the top of initiative at the top of the dowel, and goes down in descending order. Since the binder clips are marked on both sides, everyone can readily see who's before them.
I basically had them go through the same encounter 3 times, with very small variations, pretty much back to back. Instead of trying to figure out the new enemies that had just been thrown at them, they got in the groove, and finally got used to their characters. The last encounter was the most fun encounter I have DMed because of that point. The players weren't lost in mechanics, and were actually using strategy against the enemy. Of course, I was using a fun monster against them that was fun to use as well.
Anyway, I'd suggest trying to run the multiple encounter over and over again until the player gets used to their mechanics to see if it's simply the fact they haven't learned their character yet, and built their confidence to the point where they can focus what they're going to do, as opposed to what they're capable of doing.
robotsinmyhead
First Post
For MapTool, I'd seriously consider learning how to do One-Click combat macros. I've got my character setup for every power he has, and it scales for levels and such. It's a lot of work, but if you figure it out, it's a huge leap in speed for 4e.
The rest of the speed of 4e will come with time. I love the speed of 4e, and as my group gets more comfortable with the system, it all flows more smoothly with every game.
Also, I love the "Initiative Rod" thing list above by Sphyre.
The rest of the speed of 4e will come with time. I love the speed of 4e, and as my group gets more comfortable with the system, it all flows more smoothly with every game.
Also, I love the "Initiative Rod" thing list above by Sphyre.
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