Death in 4e

[Halivar]

Is this the case or is there some factor here that makes that negative bloodied mark easier to reach at high levels

Yeah, I think that's the case. Also consider this, though: when those other characters group up to save a fallen comrade, there is a good chance that they only have three rounds to do it; even though you're not outright dead, you only need to roll less than ten on your save three times. So there is still a sense of urgency.

 

[malraux]

In my last session, the wizard got gutzy and walked into the secret room in the KotS module, thinking there was only one monster instead of several. The he went into the negatives several times.

Oh, and my party has yet to survive an encounter with Irontooth.

 

[Ravilah]

I agree with Halivar about the "no more chump deaths." And that goes for being a DM as well. If I want a wizard to be the super boss, the fighter can no longer end the climatic fight in one round with a single swing. In 3.5 I had to swath a wizard-boss in illusions or a 20ft deep wall of orcs to keep him alive for two rounds*.

So I agree with ExploderWizard, too. Everything is harder to kill, and as a DM I love it!


*In another example: The Blackguard Captain of the Half-dragon army got pwned when the Fighter simply sundered his +4 Unholy Intelligent Greatsword with a lucky natural 20. Of course, the player LOVED it!

 

[MerricB]

The factor I don't have experience of is higher level play. Negative bloodied is a long way away from a character at full hit points (and surges).

I think you can ignore surges. Although they help healing, they don't really protect a PC that well.

This would seem to play itself into a character (defender?) goes down but the other characters combine to save the day (and the downed character) happening a lot. Is this the case or is there some factor here that makes that negative bloodied mark easier to reach at high levels?

The most likely reason for a high-level character to die from reaching that negative bloodied point would be ongoing damage. I've seen that at low levels, and it's very scary indeed.

Consider the Ancient Red Dragon (L30 solo soldier), which can deal 4d10+10 fire damage and ongoing 15 fire damage. So, 65 damage before the opponent can save. (It can deal 72 damage with a bite). That's not enough to kill your standard 30th level defender (approx. 200 hp, so -100 death), although the Controller (approx 140 hp, so -70 death) is in a lot more trouble.

Note that characters drop in survivability dramatically once they don't have a Leader - my Keep group no longer has one, just a paladin, and they use up healing surges at a rapid rate.

Cheers!

 

[Halivar]

In another example: The Blackguard Captain of the Half-dragon army got pwned when the Fighter simply sundered his +4 Unholy Intelligent Greatsword with a lucky natural 20. Of course, the player LOVED it!

The look on your face was priceless. "Sunder? No one ever sunders!" It is the head-hanging moments of DM defeat that bring joy to my gaming soul.

 

[Runestar]

Everyone seemed to think death would be rare in 4e before the game was officially out, when WotC released the preview on the new death & dying rules (back in April?). I was then a bit surprised when KotS was actually being played and people were posting about characters dying (either to Irontooth or to the drakes at the dragon graveyard encounter). On paper the game looks less deadly. In practice, I think the greater numbers of actually dangerous foes that you're facing at once increases the probability of losing a PC to focus fire, if the DM's dice get hot.

How optimized were those PCs?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Yeah, I think that's the case. Also consider this, though: when those other characters group up to save a fallen comrade, there is a good chance that they only have three rounds to do it; even though you're not outright dead, you only need to roll less than ten on your save three times. So there is still a sense of urgency.

Actually, I wondered about this and so ran it through a modeller with the process performed a million times. Effectively I was wondering, how often will a character with at least one healing surge left survive, and if they don't survive, how many rounds before they die.

Assumptions:
- The character is dying.
- The character is just left alone with there own wherewithall to get back up again - no assitance.
- They are not receiving any bonuses or penalties to the save.
- They have at least one healing surge left.
- They do not risk being hammered down to negative bloodied or lower.

The Results:
- 270,798 times, the character was healed, ie 27.08% the time, the character survived.
- No one can die one or two rounds after being sent into the dying state.
- 9.06% of the time (90,573 times), the character dies after 3 rounds (that is three straight fails).
From there it looks like this, dying:
4th round: 13.65%
5th round: 13.64%
6th round: 11.44%
7th round: 8.59%
8th round: 5.98%
9th round: 4.01%
10th round: 2.57%
11th round or worse: 3.99%

And for those wondering, the best I could do was have a guy last 28 rounds before finally being considered dead.

I think on the whole, this makes the characters in 4E less likely to die, provided there is someone nearby to help them. Most of the time, there should be someone there who can help them - I suppose though, it is very much encounter specific. Anyway, in terms of the numbers, that is pretty much how I gauge it.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[MerricB]

I think on the whole, this makes the characters in 4E less likely to die, provided there is someone nearby to help them.

Watch what happens when two characters go down. Actually, I've had a PC down in many, many of the battles I've run, and it's fascinating to see what happens. A few problems they've usually faced:

* No healer in the party.
* Still a lot of monsters around.
* Two PCs dying.
* Dying character cut off from other characters
* Area effect damage being cast about. (This is likely to be the most deadly to dying characters).

Cheers!

 

[Retreater]

It may just be a reflection on my lack of skills as a gamer (even though I've been doing this for nearly 20 years), but I have yet to go through a session in 4e without at least one character death. (And I've played in about a half dozen and DMed 3 sessions.) We've had a total of 3 TPKs.

If anything, I think 4e is MORE lethal than 3.5. There are fewer intelligent options open for avoiding and/or escaping combat. Utility spells' power is diminished.

Perhaps we're used to relying too much on spells like Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, and their ilk. But their abscence (or alteration) is greatly missed ... one of the things that killed 4e for my group.

Retreater

 

[charlesatan]

The factor I don't have experience of is higher level play. Negative bloodied is a long way away from a character at full hit points (and surges). This would seem to play itself into a character (defender?) goes down but the other characters combine to save the day (and the downed character) happening a lot. Is this the case or is there some factor here that makes that negative bloodied mark easier to reach at high levels?

I'd say they'd actually die if they're affected by some sort of ongoing damage (either an actual Condition or being in a damaging aura).

Also, area effects (from both sides of the table) are also likely to be causing deaths to dying characters.

In my high level game, no deaths yet due to actual damage (although a few have been reduced to below 0) although there are monsters which can kill players without damaging them (the equivalent of save or die effects except it's not down to one roll).