Death in 4e

[Herremann the Wise]

Watch what happens when two characters go down...

If an encounter is tough enough that it can send two characters quickly into the negatives, then either:
- The PCs have launched themselves into an encounter too difficult for them or without enough caution or good tactics.
- The DMs playing hardball
- The PCs were just plain unlucky.

In the games I have played in so far, we have not had more than 1 character down at any one time. I've played a Tiefling Warlord (Int/Tactical) farely well I think and perhaps that has helped balance things out, buffering dangerous situations so that certain characters survive. I've wondered actually how our group would have gone if I was playing a cleric, rather than a tactically based warlord - maybe quite a bit worse. Warlords seem to be very handy in this respect.

One thing I have noticed in the games I have played is:
- Players perceive 4E as less deadly.
- Players playing the WotC modules expect them to be balanced/not too deadly. (Irontooth was obviously and will obviously be a surprise for some).
As such, players foist their characters into situations expecting them to survive and thus perhaps react expediently to an encounter rather than tactically. This actually shifts a fair amount of advantage towards the DMs side of the screen - thus making 4E quite deadly.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Obryn]

I've seen a lot of near-death experiences in my 4e game. So far, only 2 characters have died, both from failing multiple death saves. I had one more almost die last night.

Combat is still extremely deadly, and I don't think you realize this until you actually play 4e.

-O

 

[MerricB]

If an encounter is tough enough that it can send two characters quickly into the negatives, then either:
- The PCs have launched themselves into an encounter too difficult for them or without enough caution or good tactics.
- The DMs playing hardball
- The PCs were just plain unlucky.

Pretty much.

Less of the last, more of the first two.

In the games I have played in so far, we have not had more than 1 character down at any one time. I've played a Tiefling Warlord (Int/Tactical) farely well I think and perhaps that has helped balance things out, buffering dangerous situations so that certain characters survive. I've wondered actually how our group would have gone if I was playing a cleric, rather than a tactically based warlord - maybe quite a bit worse. Warlords seem to be very handy in this respect.

Clerics are really, really, really cool.

Mind you, so are Warlords.

This actually shifts a fair amount of advantage towards the DMs side of the screen - thus making 4E quite deadly.

Very true. I don't know where the idea that WotC modules are not deadly comes from, though. Red Hand of Doom, Sons of Gruumsh and Keep on the Shadowfell have all come close to TPKs and I've had PCs die in each of them.

They're "balanced" in that you can overcome them with good tactics and play, but easy they're not.

Cheers!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

One of the things I've noticed when playing the cleric is that it's best to keep people not just above bloodied, but as close to full as you can without wasting it, including telling them to drink their potions NOW.

A couple of lucky 15-point hits and a 41 HP character goes from full to bloodied and down in one more hit.

I do assume it helps if the DM doesn't do things like overstack the encounter. One fight last week the dwarf fighter died because we were fighting a leader, four same-level strikers, four higher-level brutes, and ten minions, all of whom rolled surprisingly well on their attacks.

Brad

 

[Ourph]

I have 6 players in my group. Four are careful, skilled players who think outside the box and don't just try to kill everything that comes across their path. The other two.... not so much. What I like about 4e is that the 4 "good" players very rarely get in a position where they could die. The game makes it easy for them to apply their skill and have it really matter. The other two have gone through at least 3 characters apiece in the last few months. There is nothing more old-school than rewarding smart, careful, creative play IMO.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I have 6 players in my group. Four are careful, skilled players who think outside the box and don't just try to kill everything that comes across their path. The other two.... not so much. What I like about 4e is that the 4 "good" players very rarely get in a position where they could die. The game makes it easy for them to apply their skill and have it really matter. The other two have gone through at least 3 characters apiece in the last few months. There is nothing more old-school than rewarding smart, careful, creative play IMO.

How much are the two damage sponges though helping the other guys stay alive? You might find that if the other two were more tactically minded, the other four would be harder pressed perhaps?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Victim]

I have 6 players in my group. Four are careful, skilled players who think outside the box and don't just try to kill everything that comes across their path. The other two.... not so much. What I like about 4e is that the 4 "good" players very rarely get in a position where they could die. The game makes it easy for them to apply their skill and have it really matter. The other two have gone through at least 3 characters apiece in the last few months. There is nothing more old-school than rewarding smart, careful, creative play IMO.

I always wonder about stories like these. In my experience, smart and cautious play from one PoV often looks a lot like leaving other characters in the lurch from another.

To put things another way, a group implementing a bold plan together can do well, sometimes better than group trying to play it safe. So it's like being aggressive is always an inherently inferior choice. But a group where a few people act aggressively while everyone else tries to minimize personal risk is going to leave the aggressive people screwed over and over.

 

[Jeremy757]

stupidly running into a horde of orcs

That's an oldy but a goody. Almost as fun as the time I charged into a horde of umber hulks before I knew what umber hulks were.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Character's don't die as easy. The lethality of the game is greatly reduced, at least at low levels. At high levels when characters used to stack magic items and spells that make them immune to everything or provide insane healing combined with high saves, then it might be easier to live at high level in previous editions depending on what you're fighting and what's used against you. I don't know.

My party is 6th level right now. We've had two character deaths and a couple of times we thought we were in trouble, but we managed to win.

That being said the DM has to constantly boost encounters and increase numbers to make a fight tough. Though we are starting to run into elites and solos that pack a wallop and are hard to bring down. It might be because we are a lvl lower than we should be for the module and have not many magic items. But since our stats are very good, that makes up for it some.

At 6th level 4E has become more dangerous than it was at previous levels. I'm not sure how much my DM is modifying encounters, so that is part of the reason. But monster powers are hitting easier, doing more damage, and encounters seem to be better designed to destroy us. So we're having a tougher time even with fairly solid play.

I imagine lethality mostly depends on how a DM designs and runs the encounter, just like it always has.

 

[pukunui]

If anything, I think 4e is more lethal than 3.5. Or at least it has the potential to be ...

I've been DMing 4e (KotS) for a while now and what I've noticed is that monsters (especially those pesky little goblins and kobolds) have pretty high to-hit modifiers compared to PCs. They also hit pretty hard too. Just look at the goblin sharpshooters: +9 to hit with their crossbows, which deal 1d8+4 damage. That's as good as, and in some cases better than, what the PCs can do back.

Two PCs have died in my campaign so far (and, yes, it was during the Irontooth encounter). I imagine that more will die in the future.