Sneak attack/Curse/Quarry damage on a crit?

[small pumpkin man]

Disagree. The second part of the FAQ is simply listing examples of damage dice you would roll. It is not all-encompassing, hence the use of like in the parentheses. Sneak Attack is not part of the NORMAL damage you roll to calculate damage. Again, you do not even decide to roll SA damage until AFTER you maximized your power damage roll for the crit.

No, it's very clear, only the bits in the parenthesis are examples, here, let take that bit out. "If another bonus causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit, those dice are rolled as normal." This is the only exception to maximising damage, since, as this PHB says, "Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack".

Sneak attack & Quarry are part of your attack, and not part of the single exception shown, thus they are maximised.

 

[Wonka]

Disagree. The second part of the FAQ is simply listing examples of damage dice you would roll. It is not all-encompassing, hence the use of like in the parentheses. Sneak Attack is not part of the NORMAL damage you roll to calculate damage. Again, you do not even decide to roll SA damage until AFTER you maximized your power damage roll for the crit.

In what way is sneak attack NOT part of the normal damage you roll? Because its dependent on CA? Look at it this way, if you dont have CA, you NORMALLY roll your weapon damage, and so on a crit this is maxed, and any extra damage from a magic weapon or that happens on a crit needs to be rolled. Now you have CA, you hit, you NORMALLY roll weapon damage and sneak attack damage, so this is maxed on a crit. Its pretty cut an dry, I think you are just misinterpreting the FAQ really. Also, you point out the rolling sneak attack damage is optional, so is curse damage and hunter's quarry damage. All 3 work on the same basic mechanic, except that SA requires CA and has extra dice. Other than that mechanically they all work the same. Just because you have your target quaried/cursed doesn't mean you have to roll that damage, yet you dont have a claim about these not being maximised.

 

[bdmac]

Now you have CA, you hit, you NORMALLY roll weapon damage and sneak attack damage, so this is maxed on a crit.

This is patently false. You do NOT "normally" roll your SA damage just because you have CA. Rolling SA/curse/quarry damage is OPTIONAL always. You choose AFTER dealing damage whether you want to apply your BONUS damage. You could choose NOT to apply your bonus damage and save it for later since you can only do it 1x per round.

Also, I would say that all 3 work exactly the same in this regard, I was only singling out SA for brevity's sake. In fact I think SA would be the one that would logically make the most sense for maxing out SA damage. Curse damage being maximized because your attack happened to crit? The two things are not related at all. Curse is a BONUS that happens to a cursed critter after you deal it damage. It is not tied to your attack roll... you don't even have to HIT the critter, just deal it damage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In what way is sneak attack NOT part of the normal damage you roll? Because its dependent on CA?

Specifically for sneak attack, the rules say "You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll".

Which could be taken to suggest that the sneak attack damage is not part of the damage roll.

 

[bdmac]

Finally, thank you! Again, I really WANT this to be true but I cannot see how it possibly can be.

For a crit on the attack to maximize SA damage you'd have to somehow be able to rewind time from after making the damage roll (which is maximized) and say that your SA, which you just now decided to apply, was actually part of the original attack/damage roll that helped you decide in the first place to apply it.

At the very least for this to remotely be legit I would say you would have to declare BEFORE your attack roll that "this is my SA attack for the round" which:

a) Blatantly disregards the rule above.
b) Is probably a bad idea cause what happens if you miss.... do you lose your SA or do you then get to say "Haha, I was just kidding when I said that"?
c) What happens if you don't miss but your attack killed the critter? (which is why I think they allow you to decide AFTER damage rolls.... NOT so you can try to always maximize your SA on a crit).

 

[catsclaw227]

Here's some food for thought:

Critical Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack might be a critical hit (page 278). A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit.

DAMAGE ROLLS
✦ Roll the damage indicated in the power description. If you’re using a weapon for the attack, the damage is some multiple of your weapon damage dice.
✦ Add the ability modifier specified in the power description. Usually, this is the same ability modifier you used to determine your base attack bonus for the attack.

In addition, any of the following factors might apply to a damage roll:

✦ Racial or feat bonuses
✦ An enhancement bonus (usually from a magic weapon or an implement)
✦ An item bonus
✦ A power bonus
✦ Untyped bonuses

These things ADD to your normal damage. Sneak attack would fall under this category as well. As a matter of fact, any racial, power or damage not specifically related to critical hits would be part of your normal damage.

✦ Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)
✦ Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

The only randomized damage from a critical hit is the Extra Damage you would get as a result of a critical hit:

✦ Weapon crit bonuses
✦ Extra crit damage from a power
✦ High Crit weapons
✦ (That's all I can think of now)

Exception based design would show that the only time damage is random is if it states that you add (x)d(x) damage ON A CRITICAL HIT.

 

[catsclaw227]

(My apologies to mods, if I broke the rules about quoting WOTC text. Did I violate that rule with my partial quotes?)

 

[Plane Sailing]

(My apologies to mods, if I broke the rules about quoting WOTC text. Did I violate that rule with my partial quotes?)

No, you're fine. No problem there.

 

[Wonka]

Specifically for sneak attack, the rules say "You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll".

Which could be taken to suggest that the sneak attack damage is not part of the damage roll.

This is patently false. You do NOT "normally" roll your SA damage just because you have CA. Rolling SA/curse/quarry damage is OPTIONAL always. You choose AFTER dealing damage whether you want to apply your BONUS damage. You could choose NOT to apply your bonus damage and save it for later since you can only do it 1x per round

Yes so why is it any different that once you crit you decide to use your SA/WC/HQ? Especially if its on a crit really. Its just instead of a damage roll your damage is maxed, and since you would normally roll your SA/WC/HQ damage after that IF YOU CHOOSE TO, it would be maximised as well. If you choose NOT to include that damage, it doesnt matter if its maxed or not. The key is that, if you choose to use the ability, you would normally roll the damage. This falls VERY CLEARLY to me under the "dice you would normally roll to determine damage".

Im sorry, I just don't agree with your interpretations of the rules. The easiest answer is to ask customer service SPECIFICALLY if SA, HQ, and WC damage is maximized on a crit. My interpretation is that they are. The ONLY things you roll for are the extra damage that ONLY results form the crit itself. I think the rules are pretty clear about that.