Clark Peterson on 4E

[Jack99]

Sorry, that's too much nuance for a discussion board. We're at war people. Pick a side.

Sorry, my secretary didn't give me the memo..

Yeah, but then he followed up with:

I am not sure what your point is. The comments are pretty clear. Clark will support 4e if he gets a GSL that works for him. But he also things that 4e could be improved in some areas, so we might see an alternate version (or however you want to define what Clark writes about) from him.

 

[Nikosandros]

Sorry, my secretary didn't give me the memo..

Shame on your secretary!

I am not sure what your point is. The comments are pretty clear. Clark will support 4e if he gets a GSL that works for him. But he also things that 4e could be improved in some areas, so we might see an alternate version (or however you want to define what Clark writes about) from him.

Seems like a fair assessment of what he wrote.

He feels that 4e isn't really D&D any more (I sentiment I happen to agree with, even though I think that it's a fine game) and he's working on a variant D&D that will however use several ideas from 4E.

However, from a business perspective, he'd rather support the current game from WotC and he's still hoping that the GSL will be revised in the near future.

 

[Darkwolf71]

This is interesting. I have to agree with Clark, 4e is a good game, but is missing something that is the soul of D&D. And it's not something that can really be quantified, it's more the 'feel' than anything else.

Perhaps, this is the thing that has so many people comparing 4e to board games, video games or CCGs. It's more of the feel of the game than any specific rule or mechanic.

I run a 4e game and enjoy it... but, I'm just not, as someone else put it, 'in love' with the system. I know many are and that's great, but for me something is lacking.

I'll be very interested in seeing what (if anything) Clark comes up with. I think that the D&D he is looking for is very similar to the D&D I want.

 

[BryonD]

I am not sure what your point is. The comments are pretty clear. Clark will support 4e if he gets a GSL that works for him. But he also things that 4e could be improved in some areas, so we might see an alternate version (or however you want to define what Clark writes about) from him.

He also said

Changing a miniature game back into a roleplaying game. Restoring the classic magic items and not being afraid of buffs. Taking out the cheesy anime crap that snuck into 4E. Putting back in the goodness of AD&D. Mmmmm, wouldnt that be cool? There are some really great things about 4E, but somewhere along the way it lost its soul.

It sounds like the definition of "some areas" is important.

I completely agree that there are some really great things about 4e. But you really can't take an RPG in pieces. It is the final package that counts. And did that package maintain its soul?

Edit: To put it another way: if *I* had said the exact same things, no one would say the glass was half full. They'd just call me a "hater".

 

[Sunderstone]

Edit: To put it another way: if *I* had said the exact same things, no one would say the glass was half full. They'd just call me a "hater".

^this.

In any event, if it comes to pass Id pick it up but I wouldnt use it myself. Im not looking for yet another totally new system, and Necromancer's module support (for busy people like me that dont have time to make our own) has been less than stellar after the initial 3E boom.

Id still pick up the initial rules because it's Clark and Necro .

 

[Umbran]

As I often find with such statements, I find it difficult to grasp exactly what it is he means by "it isn't D&D". I cannot tell what he thinks the "soul of D&D" is, so I cannot really comment on whether I think it's a good direction for him to go in, or whether the result is something that I would think is more D&D than 4e.

Good luck to him on his project, though.

 

[thundershot]

Wow. He was one of the biggest 4E "cheerleaders" and now this. While I'm perfectly content with 4E the way it is, I hope this doesn't affect whatever 4E monster book comes out from them. I want it fully compatable with the rest of my 4E without having to adjust things like XP or levels or whatever. I don't want a new version of 4E... so I guess I'm just not the target audience. I wish him luck...


Chris

EDIT: After reading the rest of the thread, I really don't like what the direction that's being insinuated. I hope other people do... but it's just not for me at all. I was really hoping to support Necromancer, but not if this is what they're putting out. Again, good luck. It's been a fun ride, but alas, it's time for me to get off of the ride... Of course, this could all mean nothing if they put the damn GSL out so they can get to making 4E compatible products for me.

 

[Nikosandros]

As I often find with such statements, I find it difficult to grasp exactly what it is he means by "it isn't D&D". I cannot tell what he thinks the "soul of D&D" is, so I cannot really comment on whether I think it's a good direction for him to go in, or whether the result is something that I would think is more D&D than 4e.

It means that it is a wholly different game, like Rolemaster is, at least for me.

 

[Toben the Many]

I can respect positions like this, though in the end I think they are pointless unless they carry with them some "harder" evidence.

Someone can tell me "4e doesn't feel like dnd". But without a why, its hard to find a fix...unless the fix is to return to the "true dnd" and then create a new version from there.

As to why the answer is both simple and complex.

The simple answer as to why 4e doesn't feel like D&D to many individuals is because too many sacred cows were changed in D&D for them. I'm sure there will be many people who will respond here and say, "The sacred cows are all still there!" Well, they're not. That's okay, but you can't say that all of the same sacred cows of D&D are there.

Some of the sacred cows I'm talking about are things like, but not limited to:

• Rolling for hitpoints.
• Different to-hit modifiers for different classes.
• Radically different hitpoints between the classes.
• Saving throws, not defenses.
• Vancian magic. Yes, Vancian magic.
• Not everything ability being a combat option. For example, disguise self or the Ranger's animal empathy.

The list above are just examples. I'm sure I'm missing plenty and there will be people who argue that X is not a sacred cow. Nonetheless, they do indeed exist.

Now the reason that this gets complicated is because the breaking point for everyone is different. Changing saving throws to Defenses might have some people crying, "No! You've changed too much!" and it might have others shrugging and saying, "Eh. No big deal." or "I like it!"

For those people who are 4e fans, the breaking point was never reached. Or there was never any breaking point at all, so long as the game was still about kicking in the door, killing monsters, and taking their stuff.

So, it's perfectly understandable for there to be a complete disconnect between the various players of the game. Some will say too much has changed, others are okay with it. But what people are responding to when they say, "it doesn't feel like D&D to me" are those sacred cows that I was talking about.

 

[Toben the Many]

Wow. He was one of the biggest 4E "cheerleaders" and now this. While I'm perfectly content with 4E the way it is, I hope this doesn't affect whatever 4E monster book comes out from them. I want it fully compatable with the rest of my 4E without having to adjust things like XP or levels or whatever. I don't want a new version of 4E... so I guess I'm just not the target audience. I wish him luck...

I think that goes to show you something, eh? The D&D audience has certainly splintered. I don't think that 4e is doing badly or anything like that - but not everyone is jumping onboard like they did with d20.

EDIT: After reading the rest of the thread, I really don't like what the direction that's being insinuated. I hope other people do... but it's just not for me at all. I was really hoping to support Necromancer, but not if this is what they're putting out. Again, good luck. It's been a fun ride, but alas, it's time for me to get off of the ride... Of course, this could all mean nothing if they put the damn GSL out so they can get to making 4E compatible products for me.

I really wouldn't worry too much. I sounds like Necromancer is going to release some "regulation" 4e stuff but also work on an alternative system on the side. That's all.