Forked Thread: Name exactly what 4E is "missing"

3E great contribution to D&D -- freeing players (and GMs, for that matter) of the straightjacket of rigid class progression.

-The Gneech :cool:

But a "free" road chock full 'o dead ends, 10' pits and other traps. Putting a character concept together was more involved than my model planes, and I had to plan a character from level 1 to 20 to make sure I took the feats and skills in the right order at the right level to pick up that necessary PrC. Spontaneity? Gone. Organic character growth? Zilch.

This was not one of my favorite features of 3E.
 

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But a "free" road chock full 'o dead ends, 10' pits and other traps. Putting a character concept together was more involved than my model planes, and I had to plan a character from level 1 to 20 to make sure I took the feats and skills in the right order at the right level to pick up that necessary PrC. Spontaneity? Gone. Organic character growth? Zilch.

I dunno, I've only ever encountered that once, and that was with a character who A) was really tweaked to get a lot of particular effects, and B) started at 10th level. But I almost never use PrC's, either, so YMMV.

Still ... doesn't alter the fact that 4E doesn't even have a rocky road, as far as I can tell, more of a view out the train window as you're going by.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

My first request for 5e is to please change the socialist economy of actions to a free market. Please. Please. Please.

Because, as we've all seen on a global scale recently, the free market economy is SO much better than adequate regulation by authorities... :hmm:

More to the point: even if unchecked summoners, druids, and other minion concepts didn't take up more time at the game table, they're far more dangerous in another regard - they reduce party cohesion, by enabling those characters to run their own mini-parties, playing their own mini-games.
 

What is 4e missing?

In a word: More.

The PHB should have been twice the size with 3x the number of Powers. If that took another year of development, so be it. Four at-wills? Four? Are you kidding me? Everyone's the same.

4e is awesome for DMs. It brought that back to the 1e style.

But, dammit, it's communism-meets-d&d on the players side. Everything and everyone is eerily equal.

When everyone's special, no one is.

WP
 

I think that The Gneech and El Mahdi have stated fairly succinctly the things that I feel are missing in 4e. It feels very constrained from a character creation and advancement standpoint. I'm a major character builder. I make characters and develop concepts for fun. I don't feel the same way with 4e characters as I did with earlier editions and even other games.

There's also this lack of restraint that rankles me a bit. That might not be the proper way to put it but everybody's just so super cool and powerful. This whole "turned up to 11" trend is stale. We get the point, y'know, it's EXTREME!!! I find it all quite homogenous and bland. Everybody gets to kick a rules-prescribed amount of ass. There's a rant about game balance brewing here so I'm just gonna stop.

The saddest thing for me is that I really like a lot of the underlying systems but the means of interface, the characters and there powers, just don't turn my crank an inch.
 

I don't think it is missing anything. In fact, it feels like they stuffed in everything but the kitchen sink...and even that will get crammed in when the next new book comes out.

Not judging, just observing.
 

But a "free" road chock full 'o dead ends, 10' pits and other traps. Putting a character concept together was more involved than my model planes, and I had to plan a character from level 1 to 20 to make sure I took the feats and skills in the right order at the right level to pick up that necessary PrC. Spontaneity? Gone. Organic character growth? Zilch.
Completely disagree, though it's a common perception of 3E. I'm currently playing an elven duskblade 5 / wizard 1 / abjurant champion 2 / ultimate magus 5. He's extremely effective as a striker (he likes to channel empowered combust spells while using wraithstrike and full Power Attack, if you're interested) and has some controller abilities, to use 4E terminology. He's also a complex "build", to use a reviled term, and quite complex to play.

But he developed organically. It was not my intention from the outset for the character to end up like this. He was just going to be a duskblade. But then the needs of the party and the circumstances of the campaign came into play, and made other options more desirable, and fitting to the story.
 


I think what many crave from D&D is a shared story. The common experience that has bound the game across editions. This could be Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Darksun, Birthright, or some other setting applied to the D&D game, but it has to be meaningful and reach people.

A lot of people don't like the changes to the game. The fans are split about everything: what races belong, what classes belong, do the mechanics fit the game, are the settings still worthwhile? These are all valid questions. I have a hunch, and I don't have any idea if it's right... but I believe that many would find 4th edition more palatable if they had those common experiences to fall back upon. If many still had the Realms they loved, or at least something much closer to that, where might we be? If the designers had said "aw hell, you can keep the gnome!" how might some feel? I think the mechanics sell themselves once you play the game; they're very good. What I see turning many off is the strange look. Again, understandable. If I knew nothing about the platypus, and you told me it was a mammal, I'd laugh at you. So maybe the designers have underestimated the value of the shared experience and story, and the idea that "yeah, ok, we never used gnomes before, but they belong more than these half-devil dudes."

Anyway, back on topic...

The game is really missing content that fleshes out the character. Behind-the-screen mechanics are great, IMO. The races, classes, and powers all provide excellent foundations. I want more that expands on those foundations and helps to differentiate characters. There are a number of ways to do this:

- more meaningful feat choices in the racial and class categories

- more meaningful equipment choices across categories

- further applications of skills

- more books that add substantive content to the implied setting

All of these can contribute to characters that are unique and interesting from both a mechanical and story perspective.
 

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