Got the D&D 4e Starter Set...So whatcha wanna know?

[Korgoth]

The replayability would have been infinite. I could have tried any class/build/race combo I would have liked. And people would have really tapped into what is central to 4E: customizing your PC via selecting his powers.

It's puzzling. I'm sure they could have included rudimentary charagen... you don't have to include every class and every feat. Just a few basics to get you going.

There are people who will defend what WOTC put out no matter what you say. But to me, it's utterly bizarre. Maybe they're afraid of selling something with replay value? That's about the best thing I can come up with. Other 'explanations' just have too many holes. Either that or they're just dumb, but that's a bit of a cop out as far as explanations go. I don't know.

 

[justanobody]

I don't see what the problem is. If WotC were to include the entirety of the D&D game in the "starter" set, what would be the point of having the three books?

Oh I am sure other posters have already answered this and I haven't read the posts yet, but I have to say something even if it repeats others posts.

Starter, beginning, entry level. The starter should be just that.

Take for example Games Workshop products for Warhammer (FB/40k). They don't include paints or glues for various reasons related to ages and such so they will be a needed extra just like a surface to play on. So they can be discounted for this example as oddities that D&D doesn't need or have that has age restrictions on chemical products in some areas.

This "starter" for Warhammer includes the rules to play and even how to make a little army with the models given. They don't just give an army list but tell you how the army list is made from the rules. This is done because anyone playing this starter may wish to buy more of the full line of products. The rules included are for the pieces included, and not for every models allowed in the game form every army, only the select few included in the "starter".

With D&D, this could also be done by including rules for creating characters up to a certain level. Seems the favorite level at WotC is level 3 for "demo" products, so we will say level 3.

This would give away ALL the rules to creating characters at a level higher than level 1, but nothing higher than level 3 as the items above level 3 would not be included in this starter as it is just a starter, a primer for the game to introduce people to it.

So if it gave the basic creation rules in an actual D&D product in order to allow people to grasp how the game will be played after the starter is over, then they can go on to purchase the rest of the game, the core books.

Also you have replayability within the game because you can try making other characters with the limited rules supplied and see what happens and how you like it.

Since only some people play the game not caring about their own character, a lot more play with interest in their character, and this gives new players the ability to see that they control more than just the few premade characters. It is also a big part of the whole of D&D, and you must make your own characters more often than one will be made for you.

Not to mention for those of us in the know that is the first thing a player does, and where they "start" to play the game by making their own character.

So it doesn't have to give level 30 items, feats, paragon paths, etc to give enough to show the game basics.

So the point in having, someone buying them after the starter set, the core books is to be able to play more than just those levels/monsters/etc included in it.

What level worth is included or should be in a starter? Who knows. Depends on the adventure included and if it offers any level advancement at all, and if level advancement is included then why leave out the initial level creation?

 

[Imaro]

It's puzzling. I'm sure they could have included rudimentary charagen... you don't have to include every class and every feat. Just a few basics to get you going.

There are people who will defend what WOTC put out no matter what you say. But to me, it's utterly bizarre. Maybe they're afraid of selling something with replay value? That's about the best thing I can come up with. Other 'explanations' just have too many holes. Either that or they're just dumb, but that's a bit of a cop out as far as explanations go. I don't know.

I honestly believe it's what I said before. Their longterm plan really seems to be centered around holding back content so gamers will be more apt to buy additional product. I really think this is more geared towards getting as many sign ups as they can for DDI. I mean for WotC I think they believe it's better to lock you in for a year (no matter what the quality or actual content is) sight unseen... than to hope you will buy the next sourcebook (with the ability to preview it first).

Now why they would apply this philosophy to the starter set is beyond me... but like I said earlier, most companies with these types of quickstart rules w/pre-gens only and an adventure...give them away for free. I have to assume that what you're really paying for here are the frills...tokens, tiles, and dice. This, IMHO, is the problem... Sometimes it feels that WotC is more concerned with promoting their tie-in products (tiles & miniatures) that the game itself may be getting overshadowed. I just hope it never gets to the point where D&D's primary purpose becomes a gateway to getting consumers into purchasing the minis and tiles. I mean the starter set does list both as necessary to play the game.

SIDE NOTE: After some consideration, I have decided to do a write up of a comparison between this set and the Black Dragon 3.5 basic set when I get home from work, so look out for it tonight.

 

[garyh]

I mean for WotC I think they believe it's better to lock you in for a year (no matter what the quality or actual content is) sight unseen...

I let this slide the first time you said it because it isn't the focus of this thread, but... How exactly is that different from when I was giving Paizo my money in advance for a years-worth of Dragon, sight unseen? That's kinda how magazine subscriptions work.

 

[Scribble]

Since you mentioned the DM's side being pretty top notch I'm wondering if the product was built with the idea that the person who buys it will most likely be running it? A "Hey check out this new game I got guys... wanna try it?" scenario.

Not only make it easy for the newbie DM to run the game, but also easy to pitch the game to his friends. (Because they don't have any work to do, they can just play right there on the spot if they want to.)

 

[Imaro]

I let this slide the first time you said it because it isn't the focus of this thread, but... How exactly is that different from when I was giving Paizo my money in advance for a years-worth of Dragon, sight unseen? That's kinda how magazine subscriptions work.

I don't know about you but 95% of the time, excluding the 5% of issues that were specially packaged with extras (and majority of the time one of these had been ripped open anyway), I could go into Borders, browse through a Dragon or Dungeon Magazine and decide whether I wanted to purchase it or not. Was it more expensive than the subscription...sure, but it also meant I got to judge each magazine individually before purchasing it. Thus if an issue was garbage I could still vote with my dollar. There was a choice there, now how exactly is this possible with the new format...you are paying sight unseen regardless of if it's a single issue, monthly or annually, right?

 

[garyh]

I don't know about you but 95% of the time, excluding the 5% of issues that were specially packaged with extras (and majority of the time one of these had been ripped open anyway), I could go into Borders, browse through a Dragon or Dungeon Magazine and decide whether I wanted to purchase it or not. Was it more expensive than the subscription...sure, but it also meant I got to judge each magazine individually before purchasing it. Thus if an issue was garbage I could still vote with my dollar. There was a choice there, now how exactly is this possible with the new format...you are paying sight unseen regardless of if it's a single issue, monthly or annually, right?

Now you can wait for the threads here about the current issues and ask questions and decide if you want to subscribe (1 month subscription being like purchasing a single issue, but better because you get the current month compilation and the first artciles of the next month). Unless you were reading entire articles at Borders, I'd say the new way is similarly effective.

Note - I have not yet decided whether I'll subscribe, mostly do to a "Will I have time to use all this stuff?" concern. I liked a lot of the free stuff.

Just seems like being upset for the sake of being upset to me...

 

[Imaro]

Since you mentioned the DM's side being pretty top notch I'm wondering if the product was built with the idea that the person who buys it will most likely be running it? A "Hey check out this new game I got guys... wanna try it?" scenario.

Not only make it easy for the newbie DM to run the game, but also easy to pitch the game to his friends. (Because they don't have any work to do, they can just play right there on the spot if they want to.)

Yes, I do think the DM side of it was done superbly...but D&D isn't a game for DM's only. Yeah someone, as the DM, can grab these people and say "Hey let's play"... and they can be up and running in a few minutes, but I think most players are gonna say..."Yeah, that was cool but what makes it different from any other adventure/fantasy boardgame or more special than playng Diablo/WoW/etc. that I am going to want to make the time commitment and money commitment to play in your game every week?".

As far as the players not having work...yes pre-gens do that, but does every level have to be a total pre-gen? I mean if a player is coming back to play up to 3rd level I don't thnk they'll be bothered by actually having one or two choices to make that will shape their character.

Another problem is that the adventure presented is almost 100% combat, so really playing boardgame tactical combat with pre-gens doesn't sound too thrilling or enticing for players with the alternatives that are available to people nowadays ( Why not just play Dungeons & Dragons Heroes on Xbox?). Granted the DM will have the tools to perhaps craft a better adventure than the one included, using just the starter set...but I don't really see what will keep the players interested enough to give him that chance.

 

[Imaro]

Now you can wait for the threads here about the current issues and ask questions and decide if you want to subscribe. Unless you were reading entire articles at Borders, I'd say the new way is similarly effective.

Note - I have not yet decided whether I'll subscribe, mostly do to a "Will I have time to use all this stuff?" concern. I liked a lot of the free stuff.

Just seems like being upset for the sake of being upset to me...

No this isn't the same, I don't want to rely on other people's judgement to decide whether I spend my money or not. I could go into Borders grab a cup of coffee and devote ten to fifteen minutes to looking through the magazine and decide... hey, this is content I think would be cool for my game. Now I have to decide based on poster A who may or may not be a fanboi/hater on whether I should spend my money on a product. And if I make the wrong choice there's no second chances.

A prime example of this is the FRCG...it has gotten rave reviews and been rated as total garbage by numerous posters...so how do you decide in that situation? Wanna know what I did, went into Borders, grabbed a cup of coffee, and....well you know the rest.

 

[Korgoth]

I do really think it comes down to the fact that the primary "selling points" of D&D are that you can make your own character and come up with novel solutions to problems. There's pretty much nothing else that D&D does that some other game doesn't do... playing a role, designing an adventure (you can do that for Descent), tactical combat, etc. Where D&D really shines are the open-ended dimensions of character designation and problem-solving. I can choose (even if within limits) what I want my guy to be, and I can choose how he approaches the world.