Got the D&D 4e Starter Set...So whatcha wanna know?

[MerricB]

Sounds like a well thought out project for the most part, ymmv.

I pretty much agree with you. I was fascinated when after a "build your own character" basic set for 3.5e, the next one didn't have those options. I've got a feeling that Wizards have seen a lot of feedback on the D&D starter kits, and character creation is just a big barrier in the way of actually playing the game.

Cheers!

 

[SlyFlourish]

Starter Set

When my group played Keep on the Shadowfell, we used the pre-gens and are still using them now. It isn't like you get no choice at all, you get to pick which character you want to be. Granted you don't pick the race / class combo but for a new player that might be daunting. Saying "I want to be the dwarven fighter" or "I want to be the elven warlock" is probably enough of a selection for a brand - new - player.

To me, the box should have everything in it for a group to get together and play. It sounds like it does. Some hero minis would have been nice but I guess that would have upped the cost quite a bit. It probably works well with the tokens.

As far as having to pay $100 once you get into it, that's a bit of an inflated price. I love the monster manual and DMG but you really don't need either of them. In my regular game I reference them very rarely. The PHB gets passed around a lot but the other two books are really only needed if you're designing your own game - again not a task for a beginner.

So that means once you've spent the $13 for the basic set and your friends all love it, you pool some cash together and spend another $22 on the PHB. Now you can customize your characters all you want and play through all the material in the basic set with customized characters. If you go beyond level 3 (about 12 to 24 hours worth of play time) now you can invest in the MM and DMG or one of the other published adventures.

It seems to me the cost for a new player to scale up works out well. Sure there's a lot to buy but you don't NEED that much of it. Of course that comes from a guy that spends over $1000 a year on books, mins, dwarven forge, and other odds and ends for his hobby. Still, cheaper than golf.

Anyway, I feel like I'm reading a lot of soap-box opinions on this. It's either "Wizards is trying to sell us crack - free for the first vial" or its "This basic set of D&D is basic and that isn't the D&D I (as a 20 year vet) love playing". The set wasn't designed for us Enworlders, it's designed for the 14 year old kids who haven't tried it ever. I know I would have loved something like this when I first got started.

 

[garyh]

Plain and simple, you asked me what the difference was between Paizo's subscription model with the magazines and WotC. I have answered your question and you seem to have no reply but to continually think of ways to designate what I have a "problem" with. I don't have a problem with a subscription model. I do have a problem with an untested company dealing with something they haven't before and expecting me to trust them blindly...especially when up to this point they haven't impressed me with their products or offerings. if you feel differently well that's your oppinion.

Or maybe you just have a problem accepting that everyone doesn't think about things the same as you.

As for the coffee...I'm going to buy it anyway, not so sure about Dungeon & Dragon anymore.

I buy things all the time without extensive direct experience using only previous experience with that company/author/director/etc. and the reviews of others. It works pretty well for me.

If you find that doesn't work for you, then by all means do what works for you.

 

[Zaruthustran]

If it doesn't contain character creation, this Starter Set is a start to something other than Dungeons & Dragons.

I think WotC could have included basic rules that allowed players to experience the joy of character creation (and thereafter, the joy of playing your own character) with easy steps:

Step 1: Choose your class
Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard. The classics. Each class comes with a default stat array.

Step 2: Choose your race
Human, Dwarf, Elf, Dragonborn. Each race modifies the stats above, and includes a couple fun racial traits (dragon breath, skill mods, etc.)

Step 3: Choose your powers
Each class has default at-will powers (all fighters get tide of iron and cleave, all clerics get sacred flame and lance of faith, etc), but you get to pick from two Encounter powers, and from two Daily powers.

Step 4: Choose your feats
Each race and class has a feat associated with it. Also include popular simple feats like Quickdraw, Weapon Focus, and Toughness.

Step 5: Choose equipment
Each class comes with an equipment package, but you can instead swap around weapons and armor (chosen from a simplified list).

Done. You get a taste of character creation, but since there are default stat arrays for each class it’s still idiot-proof. Include a preview section at the end of the book, showcasing a taste of the alt-builds (like the Str cleric), and pointing consumers to the WotC website where they can download Boxed Starter Set-quality tastes of the other classes and races, and perhaps a few feats.

Bottom line is that the whole point of the Boxed Starter Set is to acquire new customers. It should be classified as a marketing expense, not a source of revenue, and it should give away as much of D&D as possible. This new Starter Set withholds one of the most rewarding and compelling components of D&D. It actively works against its own purpose. And that’s a shame.

 

[justanobody]

LATE EDIT*** Imagine if character creation was in for a second. Imagine spending some time to get a character made (might seem complex to a D&D noob) and having him die in one of the encounters. The D&D noob might be put off at the time it took to create a character to only have it die in a short while later. Pregens give them a taste for the system without the prep or attachment of a self-made character.

Now imagine the same new player is given the game without any idea that character creation is required or an idea of how it works, and plays his pregen through it so gleefully to want to purchase the full thing even dying a few times, only to find out the full game requires creating character that was sorely not described in the starter.

They were given a false representation in the "demo" kit of what to expect from the game and now how do they feel?

Lose $15 on the starter because they don't like dying near character creation, or lose $150 on the starter and core books, because they didn't even know about character creation to begin with. I would feel very put off by that, and would have prefered to known about it before rather than being hit with it later.

@Scribble: So the starter set is to replace RPGA events that give characters to new players to allow them to see what some of the game is about for free?

Sounds like the same thing to me. While the starter including some character creation stats gives a next level of introduction with the price to see how the whole game works while also offering the RPGA ability of having the pregen characters to test the full waters of the game before buying all of it.

It isn't like Monopoly where you only need to buy one thing, but you can buy the core set all at once. Since the game is so complex in what it is, giving the character generation up front in the starter lets people preview what to expect during their gaming lifetime. If they don't want to put that much into it then @$20 isn't too much of a loss. No more than going to watch a bad movie, but with the starter you might be able to recoup some lost money if you don't like it,

It may say something about it, never seen it myself either only know of the B&W Drizzt image on WotC site; but ti still doesn't tell what all that entails to create a character I am sure. So going from no work then to this mountain of decisions may be daunting. Again a reason to offer the character generation rules in the starter so people can see what to expect rather than depend on them already knowing, as the starter is/should be for first time players.

More times than not, I disagree with most reviewers. They are from a different world than me in where they are located and their interests. Small town ideas/thoughts versus big city ones and all that.

I would say you got lucky. I have seen many NYT best sellers that I thought were actual trash. Well composed and thought, but the stories were not interesting to me at all. Total snooze-fests. Just good writing skills does not make a bad story good.

People so disliked the first D&D movie that it was able to have a sequel was my point, so the reviews should mean little to a persons decision. Use the reviews you may find to see what others think, but make sure you agree with the reviewer you choose to believe prior to accepting their word as final.

No, not a X-Files reference, but the opposite view of PT Barnum from Samuel Clemons.

Combine them and you can get.... "A sucker would not be born every minute if people didn't just believe everything they heard."

=P

 

[Zaruthustran]

LATE EDIT*** Imagine if character creation was in for a second. Imagine spending some time to get a character made (might seem complex to a D&D noob) and having him die in one of the encounters. The D&D noob might be put off at the time it took to create a character to only have it die in a short while later. Pregens give them a taste for the system without the prep or attachment of a self-made character.

That. That right there. That's what's wrong with this Starter Set. D&D's system--whatever edition--is the least important part of D&D. And the pain of that noob's character's death? That emotional attachment? That's the most important part.

If the starter set showcases only combat and skill resolution, then it shows off the least interesting parts of the game. It's like a Porsche salesman talking only about Miles Per Gallon and warranty. Who cares? These stats are important, sure, but they're totally secondary. Show me the sexy lines, let me hear the engine, let me experience the acceleration and turned heads.

 

[Ulrick]

Here's my idea for the perfect Starter Set:

1. You can play at levels 1 to 3
2. You have four basic classes: fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue
3. You can generate characters--you may not get all the options from the corebooks, but enough to give a new player a taste of what's available.
4. Miniatures. Remember Hero Quest? Like that. They could make the game as in intro to the miniature battle as well.
5. Sample dungeon tiles.
6. A basic DM Guide.

Does anybody else remember Hero Quest? I played that game a lot growing up. It may pale in comparison to other RPGs, but it is a nice complete game. It's simple to run. It came with "toys."

The original 3.5 boxed set (the one with the Black Dragon, not the blue) had most of the six concepts. I've used that boxed set to introduce new gamers. I've given that boxed set as a gift. It works. That set hooked people to D&D.

This 4.0 starter set just seems like a bunch of cobbled together stuff from other sources. I'd hate to be the newbie to buy that Starter set, get hooked, then purchase the Giants dungeon tile set or Keep on the Shadowfell? I'd feel ripped off.

And the counters? Don't get me started.

 

[Imaro]

You know I just want to say for those claiming character creation is too complicated... No one claimed it had to be the totality of character generation in the box, but what it should foster is some kind of investment and attachment to one's character...otherwise why not play FFVII? It's $19.99 (even cheaper used), has a pre-gen for you...more hours of play than you'll get out of the starter set and the graphics look better than the 2d tokens. Honestly I feel like you all are underestimating children. My son is nine and some of the videogames he plays are more complicated (and even have similar "power" structures to 4e's system) than the creation of a character in 4e.

I think another point most people are missing is that D&D has to compete with other forms of entertainment (some remarkably similar to what it opffers), if it wants to broaden it's appeal and market share. There are two ways to do this...do something better than they do it, or do something different than they do it.

The D&D starter set gets this right with the DM side of things...because that is actually something D&D can do better than videogames, boardgames, etc. They give you the tools to be a really good DM in the starter set, and I have continuously applauded the set for that...but I'm not going to ignore where it falls down.

If you have a group with 1 DM and 5 players...that means majority of the group are players and regardless of how interesting the DM finds it, if five of your friends say it sucks, was boring or just meh...more than likely you all will move on to something else. On the players side of things the thing D&D can do to be better than other similar forms of entertainment is allow you to customize your character on a more personal level (though even now games like Fable and Fable 2 are infringing on this territory). Also...It sure ain't the whole playing with a group thing anymore as computer and console gaming both easily accommodate this now.

This I think is why D&D will never be as popular as it once was...it's a whole new playing field now and you got to evolve or die. Half-stepping isn't going to cut it, when there is so much out there to compete with. I feel like some posters are only thinking about what was available and possible in the past (when they got into D&D) as far as recreational and leisure activities and think it's the same now...it's not.

SIDE NOTE: I have decided not to do the comparison between the 3.5 Basic Set and the 4e Starter Set as I just don't see it going very well if I do.

 

[RFisher]

Yes, I know it's not the same as the OD&D boxes, but that was a different kind of product because it was the entirety of the game (such as it was). The only way they could make the current D&D the same as this is to release a smaller boxed set for each tier (not necessarily a bad idea), but again, that would compete with their main product.

Why is it a bad thing to give someone a relatively complete game for their money?

Would it really compete with the “main product”? If this were so, why didn’t the basic sets that most of us ENWorlders started with keep us from buying AD&D books? Wouldn’t it more (1) earn Wizards the money of some people who could enjoy a simplified D&D but who are never going to buy the “main product” and (2) bring in new player who would want to step up to the “main product” but who wouldn’t have ever bought the “main product” cold?

I think a single box set that only covered the Heroic tier would be just fine. Save Paragon and Epic for the “main product”.

(Although, I really think releasing the tiers over time would’ve been a better idea than the PHB2/DMG2/MM2, PHB3/DMG3/MM3, &c. path they’re taking. But that’s a whole ’nother discussion.)

Another problem is that the adventure presented is almost 100% combat, so really playing boardgame tactical combat with pre-gens doesn't sound too thrilling or enticing for players with the alternatives that are available to people nowadays ( Why not just play Dungeons & Dragons Heroes on Xbox?).

Completely agree. Combat is fun and an important part of the game, but it’s the stuff between combats and having a DM that makes the game what it is.

Imagine if character creation was in for a second. Imagine spending some time to get a character made (might seem complex to a D&D noob) and having him die in one of the encounters. The D&D noob might be put off at the time it took to create a character to only have it die in a short while later.

Right. The same way all of us got put off the game and never played it again when our first basic set PC died. (That was sarcasm if you didn’t catch on.)

 

[Imaro]

The original 3.5 boxed set (the one with the Black Dragon, not the blue) had most of the six concepts. I've used that boxed set to introduce new gamers. I've given that boxed set as a gift. It works. That set hooked people to D&D.

Yep, this was definitely a better starter set IMO, and I'm glad I still have a copy of it on my shelf...it's great for introducing new players.

EDIT: Actually I just realized this starter set reminds me of the 3.0 one with the counters. However with a vastly improved DM section.