Got the D&D 4e Starter Set...So whatcha wanna know?

[RFisher]

This I think is why D&D will never be as popular as it once was...it's a whole new playing field now and you got to evolve or die.

Despite having total access to TV with—what—a dozen cartoon and kids channels, a Playstation 2, and a computer, my kids can get just as excited about board games; marbles; construction paper, crayons, and scissors; reading; &c.

As popular as it once was? No, probably not. But. Marbles hasn’t had to adjust to changes in the playing field, so I’m not convinced D&D has to either.

 

[Imaro]

Despite having total access to TV with—what—a dozen cartoon and kids channels, a Playstation 2, and a computer, my kids can get just as excited about board games; marbles; construction paper, crayons, and scissors; reading; &c.

As popular as it once was? No, probably not. But. Marbles hasn’t had to adjust to changes in the playing field, so I’m not convinced D&D has to either.

I don't think you undestood me...better yet I probably didn't express what I meant well...I'm talking about how, as well as what aspects of the game, are presented to prospective players, not the game itself.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Why is it a bad thing to give someone a relatively complete game for their money?

Better idea: give someone a relatively complete game for free.

This starter set discussion resonates with me because I'm pretty keen on the whole "free to pay" model. That being: give away your content, attract fans, and let those fans pay you as they choose.

Easiest example, for me, is Penny Arcade. Others would be cutting-edge music, expert sites like Motley Fool, and so on. Concrete real-world example: the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" guy. Sure, the book was a bestseller. So what? The big money--as in, order of magnitude bigger than book revenue--is in seminars, newsletter subscriptions, endorsements, licensing, appearances, etc. The fabled "back end."

Simply: don't put a purchase barrier between you and a potential fan. Give them what they need in order to become a fan. And once they become a fan, make it easy for them to satisfy their desire to support you.

For musicians, that'd be giving away all your music for free (as Jonathan Coulton, and others, do). All of it. Then make your money with direct CD sales (some enjoy hard copies and album art), t-shirts & other merch, concerts, donations, and licensing.

For D&D, that'd be giving away character creation, early levelup, sample adventures, counters, and good tools, articles, other web content. Make your money by selling miniatures, rulebooks, novels, 3-D cardstock terrain, t-shirts, and other products--including, yes, subscriptions for more robust tools and deeper web content.

Right now WotC is doing better at this new paradigm than most companies, especially recently, but it could do a bit more.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Since you mentioned the DM's side being pretty top notch I'm wondering if the product was built with the idea that the person who buys it will most likely be running it? A "Hey check out this new game I got guys... wanna try it?" scenario.

Not only make it easy for the newbie DM to run the game, but also easy to pitch the game to his friends. (Because they don't have any work to do, they can just play right there on the spot if they want to.)

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding we have a winnah!

We wanted to achieve a few things with this product.

1) DM focused

• A purchaser that wants to play so bad they buy the box will likely take on role of DM. They will likely do this ebven if they get it as a gift. "hey gang let's play this new game I just got"
• You can't really play D&D without a DM
• DMs recruit players
• New DMs will buy the books even if their players don't
• DMs are the glue that hold game groups together

2) Teach basics of play while avoiding complexity

• Playing a PC, party roles, cooperative group play etc
• basic mechanics
• combat (the fun of kill the monster & take it's stuff)
• Rely on DM to fill in the char gen gaps later if player doesn't take a deeper dive themselves with a PHB purchase

3) keep it it as inexpensive as possible so:

• Tokens instead of minis
• re-use content from other products (assuming the new purchasers had not seen it before since they are ne wto the game)
• Re-use art
• Re-use tiles

A few people have talked about character creation and I have to agree it is one of th every fun aspects of D&D. 25 years ago it was a compleling point of differentiation between computer games and D&D.

But these days as a new player D&D style char gen is daunting when you look at how these kids are used making characters in the games they play. In 10 minutes on most MMO or console games you can not only make a cool character with a simple to use UI, but you can even use the software to make the avatar look like who ever you want. You hand a kid a game like D&D nowadays and say make a character and 9 times out of 10 they are totally lost after 10 minutes and start asking "where's the X-box?" I have personally seen it happen in focus groups with 10-12 year olds. But very 1 out of 10 you get a motivated kid, who looks at the dragon on the cover, opens the book and starts to read the rules. This is the future DM and the kid who we want to target with this box set.

FWIW I think there are some valid points in the thread about the fun and long term hook char gen provides. Our approach was to go get to the fun fast and in our opinion and experience combat is the fun. You may disagree but that is the approach we are taking. I do think Zaruthustran's idea of "idiot proof" char gen is a pretty good approach. After playing with the Character Builder beta for D&D Insider it does this walk through approach pretty well. When the Builder goes live non-subscribers will be able to download and play with a demo version that has all the same functionality, but only for level 1-3 characters so it could cover the char gen problem in a familiar format.

 

[RFisher]

I don't think you undestood me...better yet I probably didn't express what I meant well...I'm talking about how, as well as what aspects of the game, are presented to prospective players, not the game itself.

Oh, right. I completely agree with you about that.

 

[Zaruthustran]

First: I'm a huge supporter of the Starter Set idea, and I'm glad it's in the marketplace. Viewing this product as targeted primarily at DMs, it makes a lot more sense. Now I understand why character creation was left out, for now. If the 10-12 year old DM says "let's play a game", gets his group to agree, and then says "okay, now spend the next half hour reading and doing math!" then that's a terrible experience. "I went to Bobby's house to play a game, but instead he gave us homework!." Hoo boy, that's not good.

A few people have talked about character creation and I have to agree it is one of th every fun aspects of D&D. 25 years ago it was a compleling point of differentiation between computer games and D&D.

This is an excellent point. And there's a reason that every MMO & console game has adopted D&D-style character creation. Even FPS action games have "RPG elements". Why? It's fun! It's compelling. It makes the game better.

Presenting D&D as a game that lacks character creation is, I think, a missed opportunity. I understand that pre-gens should be the default, but still think that even simple chargen rules should be made available. There's something powerful about filling in the blank above "Character Name", making choices that determine your character's capabilities, and then contemplating what to put in the box for "Character portrait/symbol". Perhaps online is the solution? Target players this time, and make freely available the character creator (including ability to print). Subscribers have the ability to save / retrieve / autoupdate their characters. You'd get my money, gladly given.

 

[Imaro]

A few people have talked about character creation and I have to agree it is one of th every fun aspects of D&D. 25 years ago it was a compleling point of differentiation between computer games and D&D.

But these days as a new player D&D style char gen is very daunting when you look at how these kids are used making characters in the games they play. In 10 miniutes on most MMO or console games you can not only make a cool character with a simple to use UI, but you can even use the software to make the avatar look like who ever you want. You hand a kid a game like D&D nowadays and say make a character and 9 times out of 10 they are totally lost after 10 minutes and start asking "where's the X-box?" I have personly seen it happen in focus groups with 10-12 year olds. But very 1 out of 10 you get a smart kid, who looks at the dragon on the cover, opens the book and starts to read the rules. This is the future DM and the kid who we want to target with this box set.

Ok Scott, I was with you all the way up to here. So there's this one kid out of 10 that will be able to get the other nine to play D&D, run the combats (OA, marking, conditions, etc), interpret the rules, create adventures, explain their powers to them, etc... but he won't be able to direct his friends through character creation? That sounds a little...off. Especially if it's just limited choices as they level up and he is able to actually get them interested and excited about the game.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Presenting D&D as a game that lacks character creation is, I think, a missed opportunity. I understand that pre-gens should be the default, but still think that even simple chargen rules should be made available. There's something powerful about filling in the blank above "Character Name", making choices that determine your character's capabilities, and then contemplating what to put in the box for "Character portrait/symbol". Perhaps online is the solution?

The opening words in the quick start rulebook explain that this is an overview of the game designed to get you playing immediately and that for the complete rules including character creation pick up the PHB. But i get your point

Target players this time, and make freely available the character creator (including ability to print). Subscribers have the ability to save / retrieve / autoupdate their characters. You'd get my money, gladly given.

Level 1-3 in the online builder will be free to use for non-subscribers.

 

[justanobody]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding we have a winnah!

We wanted to achieve a few things with this product.

1) DM focused

• A purchaser that wants to play so bad they buy the box will likely take on role of DM. They will likely do this ebven if they get it as a gift. "hey gang let's play this new game I just got"
• You can't really play D&D without a DM
• DMs recruit players
• New DMs will buy the books even if their players don't
• DMs are the glue that hold game groups together

2) Teach basics of play while avoiding complexity

• Playing a PC, party roles, cooperative group play etc
• basic mechanics
• combat (the fun of kill the monster & take it's stuff)
• Rely on DM to fill in the char gen gaps later if player doesn't take a deeper dive themselves with a PHB purchase

3) keep it it as inexpensive as possible so:

• Tokens instead of minis
• re-use content from other products (assuming the new purchasers had not seen it before since they are ne wto the game)
• Re-use art
• Re-use tiles

A few people have talked about character creation and I have to agree it is one of th every fun aspects of D&D. 25 years ago it was a compleling point of differentiation between computer games and D&D.

But these days as a new player D&D style char gen is very daunting when you look at how these kids are used making characters in the games they play. In 10 miniutes on most MMO or console games you can not only make a cool character with a simple to use UI, but you can even use the software to make the avatar look like who ever you want. You hand a kid a game like D&D nowadays and say make a character and 9 times out of 10 they are totally lost after 10 minutes and start asking "where's the X-box?" I have personly seen it happen in focus groups with 10-12 year olds. But very 1 out of 10 you get a smart kid, who looks at the dragon on the cover, opens the book and starts to read the rules. This is the future DM and the kid who we want to target with this box set.

1. Where is the player focused starter set?
   • Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't the DM have enough to buy after the starter set? I hope it is spelled out within the set that the DM has a lot more money to spend on the books for the full game. Lord knows I spent more money as a DM than a player. For a totally new player they may not have preconcieved notions about the game, or be power mad like us older DMs. Hero Quest used previously as an example had the case of people around me fighting over who HAD to be Morcar and ended drawing lots with the loser having to be Morcar while the others got to play the characters.
   • You can play D&D without a DM, but it depends on what you are trying to do. The obverse could also be said that a DM cannpt play D&D without the players.
   • I have never recruited players as a DM, but been drafted to be the DM. As a player I drafted other players in some games by another DM just because the player perspective of the game and the DM met with the interests of the new player. DMs can often sel the game or themselves too much. Like a bad car salesman. One DM I met didn't recruit anyone, but had people begging to know more from an RPGA event. All others seemed self absorbed. Maybe it as the times or locales. I think it beter and more a part of D&D to have the players choose the DM, than a DM try to recruit players for many reasons better left to another thread so as not to derail this one further.
   • This is true. When the DM bug bites, it often leaves the largest bite marks on the DMs wallet.
   • Couldn't be more false. The group as a whole holds them together. No matter how good a DM is, it is the other players as well that must get along and be having fun or the DM could end up without a group. DMs are not sociologists. They are important, but not the most important part of the game dynamics of player types. DMs and players are equal in importance.
2. Difficult in a complex game to start of with. Showing only one part of the game misguides people thinking it if what may be in the starter vs what the full version is. As has been noted the character generation doesn't have to include everything, but give some options to offer little complexity, while still offering the true vision of the game.
   • Does the starter teach any of this? This all seems to be player choice matters. Giving the PC options to do is not really playing the PC. Many people feel the party roles are superficial. Cooperative group play can be told that the game is a co-op game, but the actual cooperation must come from the group. A starter can do little for this.
   • Basic mechanics are important but 4th is pretty much only that isn't it? didn't a recent "starter" come with a paperback PHB? Why did it come with a near full book and this not? Comparing mostly to the only starter set I know where is, the game has become more complex that just a basic mechanics understanding could encompass, and that was the red book set of old. With a more complex game, the basic mechanics are not always just basic.
   • combat (See DDM)
   • If the new player/purchaser of the set is the DM, and only has the starter set how can the players rely on the DM to give them more, if not included even in the DM section of the starter set? This point relies heavily on assuming 1d to always be true.
3. Always good to do with the rising prices of everything these days to ridiculous levels.
   • Cheap and effective. Should mean that tokens are something that can be purchased later and not just something for the starter so that people can choose to buy the minis or the tokens for cost and storage reasons. Will D&D monster/character tokens be made available as a product so that people do not need to buy miniatures to continue playing in the future? I think this would be a good selling item. Something like D&D pogs that take the correct area, but not some CCG model of random distribution since the miniatures already offers that and the tokens wouldn't have a game to them save for D&D or other RPG accessories.
   • I hope this products states this and people buying KotS and that tile pack do not feel abused and bought both getting nothing new. Or that new players are told that this product combines elements of those other two products so if they wish to continue play they can do so with the full KotS adventure. KotS itself was a sort of starter set anyway.
   • Its art. Why not have monsters consistant throughout products.
   • Tiles:Its art. Why not reuse it, and odds are one set of tiles is never enough anyway since you will need those corridor or passage ways that there are never enough of. Heck not everyone can afford a Dwarven Forge Master Maze dungeon set that covers their entire basement. Even paper tiles would be good as it helps the main point here of #3 to reduce costs for everyone. Little tape to hold them together and print spare copies when needed and paper tiles would work just as good. I don't think safety sciccors are needed, as parents could help them cut out the tiles for younger consumers.
   
   I think the problem is aiming the starter set at 10-12 year olds. In this country they are not even allowed to have jobs to earn their money, and this means it comes form the parents and they should not just let kids buy anything sight unseen and need to spend time with the children of this adolescent stage and help them with the things they do for leisure activities.
   
   And some of those 10-12 year olds are much smarter than given credit for as many learn in schools how to make javascript/XML enabled websites. A little D&D character creation would be...child's play for them.
   
   If this starter set was aimed solely at kids, then I think that is its major flaw.
   
   All that aside, thanks for explaining many things about the starter set Scott. It is interesting to see this kind of information on our hobby and the directions it is going from the design and marketing aspects. I think this would make an excellent DDI article what you just posted herein. It is exaclty something that seems insider's would be interested in or something that would make someone want to be an insider, or be interested in D&D in the first place.
   
   :cookie:
   
   And if this forum doesn't have emoticookies then I will figure out how to give you XP for that post.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Ok Scott, I was with you all the way up to here. So there's this one kid out of 10 that will be able to get the other nine to play D&D, run the combats (OA, marking, conditions, etc), interpret the rules, create adventures, explain their powers to them, etc... but he won't be able to direct his friends through character creation? That sounds a little...off. Especially if it's just limited choices as they level up and he is able to actually get them interested and excited about the game.

Sure I can see where you the notice a flaw in the logic here. "The kid is smart he can explain it to the noobs" and you may be right. Is suspect that's how many of us learned the game. I learned to play Gamma World from a friend and I made my of character with his help.

Our approach was to save this step for later. Focus on the DM and get them all playing sooner.