Disappointed in 4e

[The Little Raven]

Don’t have the DMG. Don’t want the DMG. This is making me feel like I can’t discuss the system since I only own the PHB. (6_6)

Well, I'm a little surprised that this is new to you, since the game has traditionally divided up the rules between the PHB and the DMG. You can't really accurately discuss 1e, 2e, or 3e without the DMG either, since you're missing half of the equation.

 

[The Little Raven]

There is another thread about the bard and some guy mentioning that the bard
heals you.. That just sounded wrong..

It sounds wrong that the bard does what it did in 3rd Edition?

Funny really. You'd expect the Player's Handbook to tell you how to play.

He's not quite right. It's the book that helps you run the game, which is why it contains the rules for the DM adjudicating actions that are not directly covered by the rules. It's needed to play the game in the sense that the DM needs it (since it has the encounter creation stuff, along with all the systems the DM needs to adjudicate a lot of things).

 

[The Little Raven]

Uhm...I think there's a big difference between running away or surendering and dying. I think once you start letting things like an "intimidation" attack actually take hit points away...well then you've made people killable with skills, and this has pretty far reaching consequences in a campaign (this is also why I hate pg. 42 as the be all end all answer to everything since it's all about damage)...also how does this work for minions??

Bronx Mugging Victim Dies of Heart Attack - New York Times

Old man has a fatal heart attack because of a mugging. No violence was done to him. Perfect example of intimidation causing damage.

 

[Mallus]

The concept of hit points being all morale is stupid, and I don't think it belongs in D&D.

The concept that hit points are, at least in part, morale is entirely consistent with the way damage has traditionally been represented in D&D.

Does a fireball or dragon's breath weapon damage you because it hurt your feelings or scared you?

Both fireballs and dragon's breath reduce a characters ability to keep fighting, which is, ultimately, what hit points are a measure of.

Does a sword in the gut hurt your morale only or just plain hurt?

Both, I imagine.

D&D is supposed to be an RPG, not a tabletop wargame.

While that's true, it doesn't change the fact they similarities exist between RPG combat and wargame combat and that both kinds of game share certain concepts.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Do we need to pull out the quotes from Mr. Gygax explaining that hit points in D&D do not represent only physical damage? This "stupid" concept has been a part of D&D since the beginning, and I doubt it will go away now.

And please note that some proportion of your hit points do represent physical damage, so you can have it both ways.

Sgt. Apone: " Ok everybody you heard the man, give em up."
Cpl Crowe: " What are we supposed to use? Harsh Language?"

Harsh Language: Intimidate Attack 3
Encounter-Ridiculous-Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Intimidate vs. Will
Hit: 3d6 + CON modifer ego damage and the target begins to cry (save ends)
Miss: Target laughs at you.

 

[Mallus]

Uhm...I think there's a big difference between running away or surendering and dying.

Of course, but let's not be too literal here. The point is that HP measure a unit's ability to continue fighting during an engagement. Whether that's through physical destruction or collapse of morale isn't relevant.

I think once you start letting things like an "intimidation" attack actually take hit points away...well then you've made people killable with skills...

Intimidate can be used to force the surrender of Bloodied opponents. That's part of the skill's description.

... and this has pretty far reaching consequences in a campaign (this is also why I hate pg. 42 as the be all end all answer to everything since it's all about damage)...also how does this work for minions??

Yes it does. I think it comes down to how you feel about those implications. Personally, I find them interesting.

As for minions, depending on the situation, I'd have no problem allowing PC's to use skill checks to cower minions, or even make them die of fright.

 

[Mallus]

Sgt. Apone: " Ok everybody you heard the man, give em up."
Cpl Crowe: " What are we supposed to use? Harsh Language?"

Harsh Language: Intimidate Attack 3
Encounter-Ridiculous-Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Intimidate vs. Will
Hit: 3d6 + CON modifer ego damage and the target begins to cry (save ends)
Miss: Target laughs at you.

Brilliant!

Of course, if I were running the game, the Aliens would be immune to Harsh Language...

 

[Lacyon]

Sgt. Apone: " Ok everybody you heard the man, give em up."
Cpl Crowe: " What are we supposed to use? Harsh Language?"

Harsh Language: Intimidate Attack 3
Encounter-Ridiculous-Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Intimidate vs. Will
Hit: 3d6 + CON modifer ego damage and the target begins to cry (save ends)
Miss: Target laughs at you.

ExploderWizard, you are welcome at any of my game tables forever

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's just a morale system. Think back to tabletop wargaming. Sometimes your squad of soldiers stops fighting because they got blown up by mortar fire. Sometimes they stop fighting because the broke ranks and ran.

But that's for a unit of soldiers, generally. The unit breaks, and thus the entire group is out of the battle. Sure, many still live, but they get scattered and unable to regroup into any size capable of being a threat. If their side loses, they'll likely die trying to flee as the enemy sends cavalry/whatever to hunt down survivors. If their side wins, they can't go back; they'll likely get executed for leaving the battle. Similar to how in 3E, killing a swarm's hp doesn't kill all x thousand of the bugs, it just utterly scatters them.

This concept does not work so well on the individual level D&D deals with, IMO.

It sounds wrong that the bard does what it did in 3rd Edition?

I was wondering that, too.

 

[Mallus]

This concept does not work so well on the individual level D&D deals with, IMO.

You seem to be saying that it's impossible to break a unit's morale but not an individual soldier's. How does that work?