4e: The final word

[The Little Raven]

I shot who in the what now?

It was Andy Collins, in the Conservatory, with the candlestick.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Honestly, i´m really happy that the "it´s not X!" phenomenon is only visible in the D&D community. Look at the "German D&D" TDE: The first box has no skills, a couple of classes, a handful of spells... The 4th edition is a skill-heavy crunchfest with more changes you can shake a stick at.
Some people don´t like it. Nobody ever told me that it´s no longer TDE.

Well, perhaps we should look at this in a positive way: Being allowed to have your edition of D&D called "not D&D" by other people is a special perk you only get when you fulfill certain criteria. Like an achievement in video games:

[Achievement] Killed 10 derro: You become part of a select little group. From now on your favourite edition of the game can be denigrated by others by calling it "not D&D."

Think positive. That´s the ticket.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Honestly, i´m really happy that the "it´s not X!" phenomenon is only visible in the D&D community.

You think so? It happens with all sorts of things. For example, The Devil May Cry series of video games proceeded in the order of 1, 3, and 4. DMC 2 simply never happened. Try to have a discussion online with fans of the series about DMC 2, and you will be told that such a beast does not exist. (As an aside, though, this one seems to be fairly universal among the fans, which ends up being more amusing than annoying)

I mean, it's a form of the No True Scotsman fallacy. That it has a name (which is not the My Edition of D&D is the One True Edition, Sucks To Your Collective Ass-Mar Fallacy) kind of speaks to the fact that it isn't a unique issue.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It even unfortunately goes beyond such nerdy things. Look at Japan, if your a 7th generation immigrant who besides say your one ancestor who moved there has married into and had children exclusively with Japanese your still not considered Japanese, your still considered whatever your origin is.

There was actually a big deal made that a foreigner made some high-level political position in Japan. This "foreigner" was born in Japan, and so were his parents and grand-parents.

 

[cwhs01]

And it is perfectly fine for people to disagree, but threads like this that try to force people to accept ones view over their own are things that cause the problems.

D&D is not 4th edition.

Holy double standards, batman.


And for what its worth, i don't believe in the mythological ideal of a "True DnD". It seems that every group has its own idea of how to play, what world to play in (homebrew or otherwise), and what houserules or even ruleset to use, that its wrong to label any one of them True DnD. AS wrong as saying that the rest are playing "Something Else, the rpg".

DnD is fantasy rpg. It usually has some monsterslaying and looting. It often features wizards, rogues, fighters and clerics. Magic is common. Sometimes.

People playing in darksun using 2e DnD are playing DnD
People playing in Forgotten Realms using Exalted are playing DnD
People playing in a no or low-magic homebrew using 3e are playing DnD
People playing in a One-shot adventure by WoTC using 4e are playing DnD
Even if it features some Sci-fi elements, horror, humor, or whatever.

But i do agree about one thing. It might be polite for the dm to explain to his players what elements he wants to be prominent in his game and ruleset he intends to use.

 

[Engilbrand]

If 4th edition isn't D&D, then there's no way in hell that AD&D is D&D. Isn't that the edition that had Spelljammer? There's no way that alien hippopeople or giant space hamsters is D&D.
Except that it is. And they do.
I have yet to truly read about what makes 4th edition not D&D. I've seen a couple of things, such as roll roll roll your skill and Crouching Naruto Hidden Deelit (whatever the hell that is), but I'm pretty sure that these people aren't talking about the way that I play the game. Just that they've decided that they wanted to hate the system so much that they purposely played it and thought about wrong.

 

[Henry]

You think so? It happens with all sorts of things. For example, The Devil May Cry series of video games proceeded in the order of 1, 3, and 4. DMC 2 simply never happened.

Two Words: Dumpshock, and Shadowrun. There's another example of a game where there's a pretty big divide (maybe not as big as between D&D 3 & 4) in the fans, and cries of "they' ve ruined the game!" and "it's not really SR!" do actually ring out from time to time. Heck, I even remember Math threads about the game's core mechanic and how good or busted it was.

 

[jdsivyer]

If 4th edition isn't D&D, then there's no way in hell that AD&D is D&D. Isn't that the edition that had Spelljammer? There's no way that alien hippopeople or giant space hamsters is D&D.
Except that it is. And they do.
I have yet to truly read about what makes 4th edition not D&D. I've seen a couple of things, such as roll roll roll your skill and Crouching Naruto Hidden Deelit (whatever the hell that is), but I'm pretty sure that these people aren't talking about the way that I play the game. Just that they've decided that they wanted to hate the system so much that they purposely played it and thought about wrong.

I agree.

With so many people having played, and are still playing D&D, it's bound to mean something different to everyone. Some people use it for high fantasy, some for low fantasy, some for gritty fantasy. Some use it for modern games, some don't. And with the plethora of House Rules out there amongst gamers, it'd be hard presses to find 2 games (house games) that are the exact same.

What is D&D? It's a game. With different editions. Played by thousands of people who play it the way they like to play it.

When people say 4e isn't D&D, they're only saying 1 of 2 things:

1) The don't like the mechanics
2) It's not how they want to play the game

And that's fine. 1e, 2e, 3e, etc...they are all D&D because that's what the label says. D&D is nothing more than a brand name. What we play is OUR version of D&D, whether it be by the rules or with changes we have made.

Star Wars is a brand name. It means you can expect certain things from a Star Wars movie, but there will always be changes and different movies from the Star Wars saga that you like or don't like. Is The Phantom Menace Star Wars? According to the label it is. But it's not my favourite Star Wars film.

4e is D&D. But it's not my favourite D&D system. Yet it's still D&D because that's what the logo says - and the company that owns the brand can change what they want...for better or for worse is simply one person's opinion.

1e was D&D but some people didn't like it. Yet some of these same people liked 3e.

You could give a 1000 analogies, from movies to video games.

But if I had to attempt to make a guess as to what D&D is (to go against all that I have said), I'd say it's an rpg set against the backdrop of a medieval fantasy world. I mean, it is called Dungeons and Dragons, after all. But each generation, each own, each designer, has their own take on how it should be tackled. Just as WOTC has done with 4e. I have no doubt they thought they were improving the game (and to many they have done just that)...but then again, George Lucas thought he was improving the original 3 Star Wars movies when he decided to create the Special Editions.

Greedo firing first? Is THAT the Star Wars we know and love?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Two Words: Dumpshock, and Shadowrun. There's another example of a game where there's a pretty big divide (maybe not as big as between D&D 3 & 4) in the fans, and cries of "they' ve ruined the game!" and "it's not really SR!" do actually ring out from time to time. Heck, I even remember Math threads about the game's core mechanic and how good or busted it was.

While it has died down a lot in the years passed, the oWoD vs. nWoD got pretty heated at times as well.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You think so? It happens with all sorts of things.

Highlander 2.