What did you never like in 3e?

[delericho]

While there were a significant number of weaknesses in 3e that became apparent with time, there were only a few that struck me immediately and remained on my list of hates:

- Favoured classes, and the multi-classing 'tax'. I understand why they were there, but I never liked them

- Paladin and Monk multiclass restrictions

- Prestige Classes. I never cared for the concept, and disliked the implementation in D&D. I saw these used really well in the Star Wars RPG, but never in D&D. There were too many, and they were either too general or designed to fill too broad a niche.

- Random hit points per level. I haven't liked these for a long time, but especially in 3e where I never managed to roll higher than a 1. (Fortunately, I didn't play very often, and could usually talk my DM into using fixed hit points per level)

- Bard alignment restrictions. Monks and Barbarians too, but to a lesser extent.

- The Ranger class. The 3.5e revision helped a great deal with this, but in 3.0 it was lame.

With the 3.5e revision, we can add:

- Weapon Familiarity. Suddenly, instead of having a trade-off in capabilities leading to a choice for weapon to use, Dwarven Fighters had a clear favourite.

- Weapon sizes. Nice concept, but an awkward execution that added little to the game beyond complexity.

 

[Umbran]

The best thing about this thread is that...

... until this point the number of reports of people being jerks had been minimal. Unfortunately, by being insulting, you had to go and ruin that.

Try leading by example, next time. 'Cause right now, you're the proverbial dude in the glass hose with a brick in his hand.

That goes for everyone - edition wars are out of style. Don't jump on the bandwagon.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The best thing about this thread is that 3E fans don't feel compelled to trample all over the thread attacking everyones dislikes or writing paragraphs of fluff to justify some stupid aspect of the game, if only 4E fans coud be more like this...

EDIT: Nevermind, probably pushed it too far after seeing Umbran's warning.

Thats because 3E is basically dead or dying at this point. Crapping on 3E isn't an agenda, as it isn't really necessary to destroy 3E at this point. Without it being an agenda or campaign for the hearts and minds of the D&D community, it isn't really an argument. If its not an argument, there's no real reason to treat it as such. The edition war is now more OGL vs. 4E than 3E vs. 4E these days.

I didn't know this thread was here to "crap on 3E." Every system has flaws, some more than others, and laying them out is a useful step to deal with them. I didn't realize every thread about problems with 4E was automatically a campaign for hearts and minds. I at least try to make legitimate criticisms and comparisons in those threads, as do most other pro-3E posters. Also I try to fact-check things, like the common claim that 3E is a "magic Walmart," ignoring the CORE RULES strictly limiting the value of items that can be bought and town limits on how much cash can be moved before they can't buy your loot any more. Did most DMs ignore this out of convenience? Yes. Did I? Definitely. Is that the system's fault? No way!

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I didn't know this thread was here to "crap on 3E." Every system has flaws, some more than others, and laying them out is a useful step to deal with them. I didn't realize every thread about problems with 4E was automatically a campaign for hearts and minds.

Criticizing 3E is a different situation than criticizing 4E. With 3E, there aren't any politics involved. While most threads about problems with 4E don't start out as a campaign for hearts and minds, most of them do end up being one after a while.

I at least try to make legitimate criticisms and comparisons in those threads, as do most other pro-3E posters. Also I try to fact-check things, like the common claim that 3E is a "magic Walmart," ignoring the CORE RULES strictly limiting the value of items that can be bought and town limits on how much cash can be moved before they can't buy your loot any more. Did most DMs ignore this out of convenience? Yes. Did I? Definitely. Is that the system's fault? No way!

The magic Walmart criticism is in comparison to 1E/2E, and not any artifact of the 3E rules themselves. In 1E/2E, as per the rules, magical items are given out at the DM's discretion only. Making them is insanely difficult and not worth it in the end, and the rules strongly advise against the sale of magic items in any form. While there are some limits on what you can buy/sell in any particular town, the fact you can do this at all is the big change, and where the "magic Walmart" comes from.

 

[Voadam]

The magic Walmart criticism is in comparison to 1E/2E, and not any artifact of the 3E rules themselves. In 1E/2E, as per the rules, magical items are given out at the DM's discretion only. Making them is insanely difficult and not worth it in the end, and the rules strongly advise against the sale of magic items in any form. While there are some limits on what you can buy/sell in any particular town, the fact you can do this at all is the big change, and where the "magic Walmart" comes from.

Didn't the 1e DMG have gp values for every magic item or am I misremembering?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Didn't the 1e DMG have gp values for every magic item or am I misremembering?

I'm not anywhere near as familiar with 1E as I am with 2E, but weren't the gp values there for exp purposes(in 1E, you gain 1xp for each 1gp of treasure you find). I can't say this 100% for 1E, but I'm pretty sure the book discouraged the idea of magic items being for sale. I can say that 2E definitely discouraged magic item buying by PCs.

 

[Allister]

Didn't the 1e DMG have gp values for every magic item or am I misremembering?

Keep in mind that this was because gold = xp in 1e. Weirdly, you could SELL magic items, you just couldn't BUY magic items.

 

[Voadam]

What were the quirks of 3e that always made you go 'huh'?

Dodge gives me a +1 AC against only one opponent so I have to actively designate it each round and track it for different foes all for that tiny difference?

All undead, plants, and constructs are immune to mind-affecting effects whether they are mindless or not? I can't charm a treant?

A high level ogre barbarian gets four iterative attacks with his club based on his BAB, but an equally combat competent swift giant jaguar beast doesn't get multiple swipes with his claw?

Grapple, wow, complex and ambiguously written with different reasonable interpretations on how the mechanics actually work.

3.0 random amount of stat boosting from a spell?

Sonic damage? Isn't that flavor for a different higher tech more scientific genre?

Searing Light? Why are clerics shooting godlasers?

1/day crap (Rage, smite evil, spell-like abilities), what a poor resource management paradigm for appropriate powers, characters should just do their things, not do them once a day.

Sorcerers, wizards, clerics get crossbow proficiency. This fits in their iconic archetypes how?

 

[Voadam]

I'm not anywhere near as familiar with 1E as I am with 2E, but weren't the gp values there for exp purposes(in 1E, you gain 1xp for each 1gp of treasure you find). I can't say this 100% for 1E, but I'm pretty sure the book discouraged the idea of magic items being for sale. I can say that 2E definitely discouraged magic item buying by PCs.

I think they had separate gp and xp values in 1e.

I want to look it up at home later tonight.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I think they had separate gp and xp values in 1e.

I want to look it up at home later tonight.

GP value or not, I'm pretty sure that allowing PCs to purchase magic items was heavily discouraged.