Does everyone take Superior Weapon Proficiencies?

[cjais]

Then your basic problem isn't with superior weapons, its with the concept of weapon specialization itself.

Oh yeah, it definately is. I'm not that bothered by it, and won't be such an to give them weapons without regard for their feats.

It just ruins a bit of the surprise when you have to tailor all the "legendary magical weapons" in the setting as conveniently superior weapons of their chosen type.
I like it when I can hand out magical items that are useful for more than one party member, and then watch them "fight" over it. Whether its leather armor, scale armor, neck items or weapons. It's a bit disheartening to see their faces when I give them a worthless +3 Greatspear, just because the spear-wielding Warlord couldn't make it that day.

And I don't think I'l consider the "Transfer Enchantment", that's a bit too gamist and artificial, even for me.

 

[Nail]

Now, I don't see this as a problem - in fact, I think it's pretty cool. I'm just wondering if everyone else is seeing this.

Yep, Superior Weapon proficiency is good. If you "do the numbers" and calculate the "Give to Gets" ratio (how many enemies you can kill before you get bloodied), Superior Weapon Proficiency is generally the second best choice.

The best choice, of course, is toughness. Yes, toughness really is that good; do the math and you'll see.

 

[scarik]

And I don't think I'l consider the "Transfer Enchantment", that's a bit too gamist and artificial, even for me.

I hope you have this same issue with all the magic that gives you game benefits.

Otherwise you're saying it's ok for a Wizard to take an ordinary sword and infusin it with magical energy to make it +2 Flaming, but its is not ok for him to pick up a +2 Flaming Battle Axe and suck the magic out of the item entirely then infusing a longsword with it?

i think its an awesome visual to have the mage set both weapons down in front of him on a table beside his ritual book as he reads out the incantation while slowly pouring residuum over both weapons until he reaches the final lines, picks up both weapons and shouts the last phrase.

Then in a burst of arcane power the battle axe ignites and the flames surge across the wizard's body and ground out into the longsword until the axe eventually dims until its fire dies out forever and the sword now burns with its lost power.

Bonus points if you rule the axe crumbles to dust at the very end.

 

[frankthedm]

Yep, Superior Weapon proficiency is good. If you "do the numbers" and calculate the "Give to Gets" ratio (how many enemies you can kill before you get bloodied), Superior Weapon Proficiency is generally the second best choice.

The best choice, of course, is toughness. Yes, toughness really is that good; do the math and you'll see.

Grindtastic but very true.

And I don't think I'l consider the "Transfer Enchantment", that's a bit too gamist and artificial, even for me.

I like the concept myself. Unless the enchantment on the weapon came about spontaneously {Becoming magic though it's own rich history and Glories], I don't mind one wizard transfering another's wizard's work from one hunk of steel to another.

 

[Ibixat]

Yep, Superior Weapon proficiency is good. If you "do the numbers" and calculate the "Give to Gets" ratio (how many enemies you can kill before you get bloodied), Superior Weapon Proficiency is generally the second best choice.

The best choice, of course, is toughness. Yes, toughness really is that good; do the math and you'll see.

Do you consider toughness as a must have even at higher level or more important lower level and then retrainable, maybe to be picked up again later on. I would never get rid of it on a defender but my rogue has other feats that would quite likely have more impact at 6th-9th level. It just feels like a feat that scales poorly, I almost think it should have been 5+(level/3) hp to make it scale better through 30th

 

[cjais]

i think its an awesome visual to have the mage set both weapons down in front of him on a table beside his ritual book as he reads out the incantation while slowly pouring residuum over both weapons until he reaches the final lines, picks up both weapons and shouts the last phrase.

Then in a burst of arcane power the battle axe ignites and the flames surge across the wizard's body and ground out into the longsword until the axe eventually dims until its fire dies out forever and the sword now burns with its lost power.

Bonus points if you rule the axe crumbles to dust at the very end.

That's a good way of putting it, I hadn't thought of that

 

[frankthedm]

Do you consider toughness as a must have even at higher level or more important lower level and then retrainable, maybe to be picked up again later on. I would never get rid of it on a defender but my rogue has other feats that would quite likely have more impact at 6th-9th level. It just feels like a feat that scales poorly, I almost think it should have been 5+(level/3) hp to make it scale better through 30th

Retraining it in the later levels of a tier actually does sound like a good plan. Since you get the whole amount of HP for the tier when you take it, trading it out midway through the tier will let the HP you have gained going through the tier make up for it, freeing op the feat. Then at the new tier, retraining back to toughness. Thus when the character is facing a whole new shload of foes and expectations in the new tier, they have extra HP JIC, but later on after they have gained more HP from class and the ratio of “Toughness HP to Class HP“ is not as favorable, they just retrain it again.

 

[Nail]

Do you consider toughness as a must have even at higher level or more important lower level and then retrainable, maybe to be picked up again later on.

"Must have"? No.

It's best at the lower levels of each tier, just as you'd expect. 10 hp means more at 11th level than it does at 20th.

Toughness is very good (for a 4e feat). If you keep in mind that in order to damage something, you have to expose youself to the chance of being hit, you'll "get" why toughness is good. How many attacks can you take (on average) before you become bloodied?

Toughness adds to that.

Given how it stands in RAW (+5 hp per tier of play), it's good. Scaling it with level would make it even better. Too good, maybe.


Back on topic: Extra damage is good. Superior weapon proficiency gives you ~1 hp extra damage per attack. However, so does the feat Weapon Focus. So if you don't want to specialize in a single weapon, take a weapon group instead.

 

[Dausuul]

Otherwise you're saying it's ok for a Wizard to take an ordinary sword and infusin it with magical energy to make it +2 Flaming, but its is not ok for him to pick up a +2 Flaming Battle Axe and suck the magic out of the item entirely then infusing a longsword with it?

That's more or less how I feel, actually. To me, magic is not something you just pour into an item; it's integral to the item itself. You don't forge a normal sword and then turn it magic. The enchantment takes place as part of the forging, and alters the properties of the sword.

To put it in a real-world context, say you have a Damascus steel sword and a crude iron battle-axe. You can't suck the Damascus out of the sword and pour it into the battle-axe. I look on magical properties as being the same kind of thing.

What I'm planning to do instead is give PCs books of magical lore and special ritual components that enable them to create magic items with particular abilities - for example, a lore-book explaining how to make a Thundering weapon, and enough dedicated components to create one such weapon. That allows them to make weapons that fit their needs, without grinding my DM gears. (It also gives me a nice little quest hook, if the lore-book calls for something like dragon blood in addition to the other components...)

Also, in my games, "named" magic items tend to level up with the character - one of my PCs has a frost weapon whose numeric bonus scales with the level of the wielder. That way he doesn't have to get rid of his family's ancestral sword just because he's outgrown it, and I don't have to hand out an endless series of magic longswords to keep him adequately armed.

Back on topic: Extra damage is good. Superior weapon proficiency gives you ~1 hp extra damage per attack. However, so does the feat Weapon Focus. So if you don't want to specialize in a single weapon, take a weapon group instead.

You're missing one important element, though. Weapon Focus gives you +1 per attack. Superior Weapon Proficiency gives you (on average) +1 per weapon die. Your basic attacks for 1[W] get +1 damage either way; but an encounter power that does 3[W] damage still only gets +1 from Weapon Focus, but +3 from Superior Weapon Proficiency. Thus, at Heroic tier, SWP is the better feat.

Of course, Weapon Focus scales with tier, which makes it less clear-cut as you advance.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Yep IMC 3 of 4 superior....ranger (bastard swordx2), cleric (Bastard sword) and fighter (whatever the supe axe is called)...not superior is the Wiz, who has a longsword anyway!