Planescape, 4e, and the problem of worlds without history

[DandD]

why should most campaign settings have a "sky" if most PC races cannot fly?
After all, being in the sky means being in the place of "fast falling death".

You can battle rocs, harpies and dragons in the air with at least fifth level, and have airfights, where melee-fighter swoop down upon the flock of ghoulish dire ravens, and magic-users like the wizard and the cleric shoot beams of elemental or divine energy at eagle-riding halfling barbarian raiders and air elemental hoodlums. Also, airships are cool.
Yep, good ol' 5th level for clerics and wizards/sorcerors. Now's the time to go up and away.

Just don't fly too high, because there's a limit to how much you float before you fall.

The same goes for the ocean, a place of "fast floating death".

Fast floating? Sounds kinda contradictionary... Aside from that, people can fish for food, or simply have fun swimming around (don't forget ranks in swimming), and sometimes pull up sunken treasures from whatever weird pirates lost them.

Sea adventures are much more easier and accessible than sky adventures, but both are even more easier than planar adventures, where you swim in endless water, or simply get stuck in stone, unless you really have some serious mojo flinging around.

 

[underthumb]

I am glad to know that we won't get to see the return of the Blood War, one of the most stupid things proving how eternally stupid the demons must be, for being incapable of conquering Baator with their limiltless numbers... I want demons to be a threat, not a cosmic joke everybody in the multiverse hearing about that gets to laugh at.

I don't want this to become a thread about the blood war, but I do want to take a moment to clear up a common misconception. In Planescape, it is often acknowledged that the standard account for this or that feature of the planes is not necessarily the absolute truth. This is the case for the idea that there are an "infinite" number of tanar'ri (see Hellbound: The Blood War). Planar scholars argue that while the tanar'ri are significantly more numerous, they are not actually infinite, and they give the exact reasons you would expect. So, while commoners believe that the tanar'ri are infinite, they may very well be wrong.

This information, btw, is contained in a booklet that is labeled "for the DM only". It may partially explain why this point is not well known.

 

[FourthBear]

I am glad to know that we won't get to see the return of the Blood War, one of the most stupid things proving how eternally stupid the demons must be, for being incapable of conquering Baator with their limiltless numbers... I want demons to be a threat, not a cosmic joke everybody in the multiverse hearing about that gets to laugh at.

It should be noted that the Blood War is referenced in the 4e Manual of the Planes as a conflict between demons and devils that is currently in a sullen truce.

It is also given an official motivation which, personally, I find more compelling than the previous explanations for the Blood War. Of course, that's not saying much. As I recall, the explanations tended to be: no reason whatsoever, LE hates CE and CE hates LE, they're alien creatures with utterly alien motives mortals can't understand and the explanation from the Blood War boxed set (my least favorite). The current explanation centers around a conflict around the seed of evil that the god Tharizdun placed at the center of the Elemental Chaos, creating the Abyss.

I would prefer it if 4e continues to keep the Blood War largely ignored. I think both devils and demons work better in campaigns when their focus is centered upon the world of mortals. I don't like them being focused more on the Blood War than corrupting mortals or wreaking destruction to the World. You know, things a party of PCs might reasonably care more about than if Evil Outsiders Team 1 slaughtered Evil Outsiders Team 2.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Why have the heavens if no one can fly?
1)
Well, some can fly.

2)
Our real world has a heaven. We kinda expect it. Moreover, we can see it just by looking up. Likewise, we have deep oceans, and we sail on them.
But the plane of fire - there is no real world equivalent. We don't expect it to exist, so if you tell me it does, what can you do there? When will we see it, what's going on there? This can lead to interesting answers - but the answer in the "Great Wheel" seemed to be "it's pretty hot there and not much going on there, except the City of Brass, which is unlike the rest of the plane but at least fire-themed...

---

A thing that I never quite understood is what the Ethreal, Shadow and Astral planes where and what they do. They seem similar on some levels, but what's happening there, what's the most distinguishing feature?

The distinguishing features of the Astral Sea, the Feywild and Shadowfell are a lot easier to make out. And for me, they resonate with myth and folklore. (I must say, the strongest resonance I do have with the Feywild. It just makes so much sense to me, with the Fey Crossings and so on...)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As is change for the sake of change.

Although you acknowledge in your original post that's not the reason they did it.

The neckbeards who constitute much of the D&D population are just another few servings of 7-Eleven nachos from their final heart attack. Creating additional barriers to entry for new gamers is a bad idea, if you have any desire for there to be future generations that play D&D.

The Great Wheel and/or its various places, faces and stories can be incorporated back into the new cosmology or used as an alternative campaign setting -- it's not like the PDFs aren't easily available -- instead.

Let's not force the newbies to have to memorize the phone book before they can sit at the table. If nothing else, they've got nacho money.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Here's a (half-serious) question: why should most campaign settings have a "sky" if most PC races cannot fly? After all, being in the sky means being in the place of "fast falling death". The same goes for the ocean, a place of "fast floating death".

I suspect that most answers to my above question would center on the idea that people find the ocean and the sky familiar, and we take it for granted that we'll need something extra to survive there. I suggest that it's just one small hop from that idea to the idea that the plane of fast burning death is no different. You'll need something special to survive there, just as you would underwater or in the sky.

So keep using the Great Wheel. WotC won't and can't stop you. But if you want everyone else to play the way you want them to, you're going to be disappointed no matter what it is you enjoy.

 

[pawsplay]

Tradition for the sake of tradition is kinda pointless.

Tradition for the sake of awesome, though, is awesome.

 

[wedgeski]

I never got to play or DM Planescape, but as reading material, I love it. Beyond Countless Doorways was also one of my favourite Malhavoc products. Absolutely gorgeous. But I never liked the Great Wheel, and I hardly ever, ever ventured into the planes with any campaign that I've run, unless a published adventure called for it. The reason was pretty simple: I didn't think my narrative powers were up to it.

Now, that kind of thinking was a long time ago, probably around the time PS actually came out. I just spent much of the weekend with the 4E Manual of the Planes open in front of me, and it's made me reconsider this decision almost completely. There's something about the 4E cosmology... I can handle it without having to juggle it, I can fit the structure of the planes in my head in one go. I can actually imagine using it. Even the structure of the book reinforces this: here's some general stuff, here's the Feywild, the Shadowfell, the Astral Sea, the Elemental Chaos, here's Sigil, the City of Brass, oh and here are some monsters and a few new Paragon Paths. It all just *works*.

(If only the art had been just a *little* bit better.)

This is probably more about how much I've changed than the game itself, but IMO the newest MotP is a gem of a book, and I've come away from it with more campaign ideas than I know what to do with.

 

[Mokona]

Is there really a good reason for all of this amazing material to be either redacted or cut completely? Was trashing most of the multiverse (as it was constituted) worth it to "maximize playability"?

Yes...there really are good reasons to redact and cut material.

Yes...it was a good idea throw out the trash.

The 4th edition cosmology is pretty much the perfect celestial space for Dungeons & Dragons players and the feeling of fantasy overall. Even if it were true that amazing material was changed and the multiverse was gone, which are not true, it would be worth it to make the game more fun.

"Maximize playability" = "Have more fun"

I know I'd like to have more fun than have less fun when I sit down to play with my wife and friends.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Tradition for the sake of awesome, though, is awesome.

Well, I can't argue with that statement.

But I can say that not everyone agrees on what's awesome and what's not.